Předmět: [world-vedic] Re: Re: [hc] Re: [Ind-Arch] Kafir religion (Witzel's paper) Od: vavamenon Datum: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:57:05 +0100 (CET) Komu: Michael Witzel , shivraj singh , Francesco Brighenti Kopie: hinducivilization@yahoogroups.com, Atul C. Shah MD , vedic_research_institute@yahoogroups.com, vedic wisdom , vediculture , vedakavi@serveveda.org, vedicliterature Dear VavaMenonji, I have not forgotten either you or your concern for vedic life,culture and philosophy. My book will be published hope fully in May. My areticles highlighing women studies in Vedic times are published here... but that is in Kannada.. I am translating it into Kannada for you. Not finding Women Rishis in Rigveda looks rediculous.. there are 30 names. Rishika, Vak, daughter of Rishi AmbhruNi excels in the content of the vision of the Mantras. See.. Rig.10.125. Devata of the Sukta is Atma=Self. Namaskara JManohar On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 vavamenon wrote : >Dear Jayji, > Namasthe !!! > I know that you are still too busy. Hope, you have not forgotten me in the process. > Has your new book come out ? > With best regards, > vm > >shivraj singh wrote: > We did study the scriptures and that is why we said you are wrong: > >In Shatapath Brahman it is clearly mentioned that wives performed vedic rituals which were later entrusted to a special class of male priests called udgatrs. This is only possible if women were given vedic education. > >14:3:1:35 (Shatapath Brahman) > > And that cow which yielded the fast-milk for the (Sacrificer's) wife he gives to the chanters, for it is they, the Udgâtris, that do, as it were, the wife's work on this occasion: therefore he gives it to the chanters. > > >Secondly Panini in ashtadhyayi distinguishes Acaryani and Acaraya there by distinguishing women professor/scholars from wives of professors. > >४. १. ४९ इन्द्रवरुणभवशर्वरुद्रमृडहिम अरण्ययवयवनमातुलआचार्या- णां आनुक् । >Katyayana further in Varttika 125, 2477 corroborates Panini that there were female teachers of grammar. Furthermore Patanjali wrote in his comments to Ashtadhyayi 3.3.21 and 4.1.41, that women undergo the thread ceremony before beginning their education, and says that women studied grammar. > > >So there is ample evidence from indian scriptures and grammarians that women studied grammar, performed vedic rituals, and were vedic scholars and taught others. > >Let us examine some women scholars of vedic times: > >Gargi Vachaknavi was an ancient Indian female philosopher, born in the family of Rsi Garg. At brahmayajna, a philosophic congress organized by King Janak of Videha, she challenged the sage yajnavalkya (Vedic sage who is credited with the authorship of the Shatapatha Brahman including the Brhadranyaka Upanishad) with perturbing questions on the atman (soul). This shows Gargi was a Vedic scholar. > >You have made an assertion that Vedas were taught *only* to men. > >To prove your assertion is false we need to provide you with a single counter example. We have given you several examples above so your claim has been falsified. I hope you will accept your mistake and correct your paper. > >-Shivraj > >Michael Witzel wrote: Usually I do not see, read nor reply to the kind of nonsense below that has been sent on to me yesterday. But this is just too wonderful: > So, Shivraj, you do not like ONE sentence and then skip the rest of a paper? True scholarly spirit! > > As for the matter at hand: of course, I did not write the "offending sentence" without reason: a few years earlier I had studied the problem of "female Risis" -- and found NONE in the Rgveda. See my paper that was read out at the 2002 conference mentioned at: , scroll down. > The conference volume has, however, not been published yet. > > > Female 'poets' all were *imagined* by contemporary Rgvedic male Rsis, speaking with imagined female voice, mostly in sexually charged contexts, and usually for a stanza or two at a time. > > > Result: no independent Rgvedic female poets and just TWO *token* women in the Upanisads -- who were taught or *defeated* by a famous teacher, Yajnavalkya ... Poets? Philosophers? They were used to make a literary point in the argument, just like the Ksatriya 'Brahmins' always bandied about (another can of worms, see T. Goto, and yours truly)... > > > I suggest studying the Rgveda text itself and not just believe a book of the late J. Leslie. She did not specialize in Vedic; and other points of her fashionable "women studies" approach have been criticized by others. Go look. > > > Cheers, > MW > > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2008, at 10:10 AM, shivraj singh wrote: > > Francesco, > When the very first line of the paper (http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cFjRR4RQyF83mnQkVmRIR2WIXjW_7kc1t5MmZvUMsgADSsQt7rpKO3sAnMFLn1Uj7JZzfGFXJW94F0Ogkngou0JTCKa-ckaz/Witzel%20on%20Hindukush%20religion.pdf) by witzel (Witze l on Hindukush religion.pdf ) you uploaded is just a bunch of lies, is there any reason we should go and read the paragraphs later on in the paper as you want us to? > > Let us see the first line in witzel's paper: > "Our knowledge of Rgvedic religion is limited by the circumstances of the production, early >collection, redaction and transmission of the texts. They were composed by and for (male) >poets/priests (brahmán) and their aficionado mundane and divine audience." > > The statement above by Witzel is wrong as Julia Leslie (Essence and Existence: Women and religion in ancient Indian text, in Women's religious experience, Ed. Pat Holden, Totowa, Barnes and Noble Books, Pages 89,112) notes that Indian women in vedic time could do vedic rituals and conduct sacrifices. > >Then Elison Banks Findely (Gargi at the king's court: in Women, religion and social change, Ed: Yvvonne Haddad Pages 37-58) has proven that as late as 600 B.C women were recognized as vedic scholars. > >So when Witzel is blatantly off mark in the introduction itself, there is no hope in hell the rest of his paper has any iota of truth. BTW the introduction that witzel has written that vedas were not for women is non-sense started by Max Mueller and he is perpetuating it. What is surprising that when material is available to the contrary why do these "scholars" cling to writing falsehoods? I find it hard to believe it is ignorance because ignorance cannot be the hallmark of professors at Harvard. But perhaps you know. > >-Shivraj > > > > >Francesco Brighenti wrote: > >--- In IndiaArchaeology@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" >wrote: > > > A valuable description of the religion of the Kafirs appears on > > George Scott Robertson's "The Káfirs of the Hindu-Kush " 1896... > > Note that the Kafirs had been isolated from the Hindus for many > > centuries. To me their religion is a form of Hinduism, with Vedic, > > Puranic and local components, just like it is in rural India. > >The "Hindukush religion", practiced till the end of the 19th century >by most of the Nuristani-speaking tribes living on both sides of the >present Afghan-Pakistani border and, still in our days, by the >culturally similar Kalash of Chitral (who speak Dardic, i.e. NIA >languages), shares many traits of the reconstructed common Indo- >Iranian mythology and ritual as well some aspects of the R.gvedic >mythology and ritual, but not of the post-R.gvedic ones. It seems >that the influences from the Vedic (or still pre-Vedic?) religion >occurred at a very early date (perhaps in east/southeast >Afghanistan) and subsequently came to an end when the "Hindukush >religion" became the creed of a settled population of mountaineers >isolated from the lower river valleys peopled by the R.gvedic Aryans. > >This does not make the Nuristani "Hindus" in the common acceptance >of the term, although they also share, as I pointed out earlier in >this discussion, many traits of the type of folk Hinduism that is >seen in some among the most remote rural areas of North India. > >I have uploaded on the Files section a pdf article by Michael Witzel >in which you can find a very informative discussion of >this "Hindukush religion" based on some among the best available >scholarly sources (Robertson, Morgenstierne and Jettmar among >others). The file is named "Witzel on Hindukush religion", and the >discussion in question is found in para 1.5 "The Hindukush area: >Nuristanis and Dards" (pp. 18-26 of the pdf document). Due to >copyright problems, I will remove the paper from the Files section >in two da ys from now. > >Best, >Francesco > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 > 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 > direct line: 496 2990 > > > > changed to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! 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