Responses to a
 BRAHMIN 
in
SINGAPORE

On September 14th, 2000, I responded to a Brahmin from Singapore who had earlier written to me,

First let’s focus on the dating of Sanskrit and we will come to the other issues later. You have stated that a language can be spoken but not be a written language. Yes this is true, for example amongst tribals. They speak a certain language but it has no written form, but later certain people like missionaries come and using a certain script in existence will give a written form to the language of the tribals. This has happened and missionaries have translated the Bible in this manner.

However, though this is true, no literary standard or philosophical thought is seen in such languages and the intellectual standard quite poor. So this argument does not prove anything.

Sincerely,
Alex.

He wrote back on later on September 14th, 2000,

Are you insane?

How can you compare the languages of the tribals with saunskrut? Tribal tongues are naturally developed languages, using sounds of nature and other onomatopoeia. But saunskrut is a language that was made, and if the date that I give is correct, then it was made by the Gods.

Well, as about saunskrut, let us talk about the language that jesus preached in, it had no script, but then too it was profound. Can you give me a single literary reference that says that Aham Brahmasmi is God is in me? And when I mean literary reference I mean, I want it from a Saunskrut scholar, not from some pan eating maulavi who is majorly pissed with brahmins because the masjid was broken.

Why do you run away from the issue of aham brahmasmi? Any other christian would love to disprove a blasphemer!!!! is it because your account is baseless?

I agree, my argument does not prove that saunskrut is older than 150 ad, but it definitely proves that it necessarily did not start in 150 ad, which means that you can no longer assume that saunskrut is predated by jesus christ, you understand?

dont you get it? idiot? i use your tribal example. just because a missionary wrote the bible in the tribal language in 1894, lets assume, does it mean that this particular tribal language did not exist prior to that? cant you comprehend even this? dont you understand that your argument is supremely flawed? please take note of this and please give it some thought. when you are arguing with a hindu brahman, you need high levels of logic, that is why i suggested that you meet some professor in the department of mathematics in the much exalted mit, that is if what you say is true, and you are really in mit.

anyways, mail me again, only if you have the answers otherwise i shall consider the battle won by the brahmans aham brahmasmi,
OJ.

I responded again on the same day

Again there is no evidence presented for Sanskrit. The vedic people were probably a Caananite type of people (evidence Boghazkoy tablet, please see my page on Aryans) and spoke some language. They were influenced by the Caananite worships and their nomadic worship songs were later translated into Sanskrit. A simple glance at the RgVeda reveals this and they have little philosophical content.

Let’s deal with Sanskrit and then move on to the other issues.

Sincerely,
Alex.

On September 15th, 2000, OJ responded,

The rgveda has no philosophical understanding? Good, then so doesnt the Genesis. It just talks about how God created the world and blah blah blah...

But, then again, as you  have failed to comprehend, the Rgveda lays down the foundations for the philosophical thought that is found in the upanishads.  The Upanishads are the most philosophical ancient literature that you can get your hands on.

A glance at Rgveda? How do you glance at a book and tell whether it has philosophical thought or not? Evidently, your judgements are biased. It is a shame. Do you atleast know Saunskrut? Read the Brahmanaspati Sookta in the Rgveda, and you will instantly realise that the profound philosophical concept of the sleeping Brahman found in the Upanishads originates from here. I know what your goal is, to belittle the great vedic culture and literature, so that Christianity can have its day in the sun.

I have observed that the younger the religion, the more insecure are the people. That is why islamics are so insecure. Learn to take hindutva in a new light. If you look at the color red from a green glass, it is not going to look red. Drop your christian inhibitions and then see, how Sanatana Dharma frees you from yourself.

The goal of the human life is to wake the Brahman.

Aham Brahmasmi,
OJ.

The same day I responded,

You state that, “The Upanishads are the most philosophical ancient literature that you can get your hands on”. Well here is the crucial issue. The philosophy of the Upanishads has nothing to do with the RgVeda. The RgVeda is nothing but nomadic songs sung in worship. I have one of them on my site where the vedic people sing this during a horse sacrifice.  These songs were later translated, and hence they have a crude flavor. However, the Upanishads are written in good classical Sanskrit.

The Sanskrit language developed around 2^nd cAD due to the confusion in the languages of India caused by the various conquests. We classify this as Prakrit. It was then that scholars (mostly Dravidian) developed Sanskrit as a national link language. The Dravidian emphasis is evidenced by the fact that Veda Vyasa, a Dravidian, translated the nomadic songs for the vedic people.

Sincerely,
Alex.

Later in the same day OJ responded,

Haha,

You never cease to amuse with with your insignificant knowledge of vedic literature. Why do you think that the upanishads are connected to each of the samhitas in the vedas? why do you have the aitreya upanishad, and the aitreya samhita in the Rkveda? Why do you have the mandukya upanishad and also have a mandukya samhit in the yajur veda? Why are all these names equivalent?

If what you say is true, and saunskrut began only in 200 AD, then why do vyaasas writings in the mahabharata date back to 5000 bc? Can you explain that? Planetary positions given by vyaasa in the mahabharata have been determined to have existed only in 5561 BC on october 14^th. Now, how do you explain this?

How can you account for the fact that all major ritualism that came in later has its roots in the vedas? And also the fact that there are brahmins who are specialists in their own sutra? If they were nomads, why would there be specialisation? Why would there be upto 16 different specialisations? Heck, even after 2000 years, the christian church does not have that many specialiasations, and nor does the islamic code of religion.

Specialisation indicates experience. That thing that you have written about alberuni on your website, you can use that to wipe bird-hit. The vedangas, that basically tell how the vedas should be read and explain all the grammar and the pronunciations in the vedas are as long as the english christian bible. Scribes are careless indeed! If you talk to a chinese scribe in chinese, obviously he is not going to understand. After living in Singapore for 3 years, I still cant make out minute difference in Chinese pronunciation.

And if sanskrit came so late, how come a single minority of people gather so much power? How was it possible for them to write the humongous amount of literature that is the vedas, and then dominate over the other people, who were not ever racially dissimilar, in only 4-500 years?

Please do not give me lame arguments. In your next mail, I expect answers and fresh arguments for all the points that I have put forth in this mail.  Otherwise, it will be better that you should not mail me. I am not of the kind that likes to drive the point home with a hammer. You must understand when your point has fallen and graciously accept it.  I still suggest you call up some of your logician friends at MIT and confide in them. I am sure they will not laugh at your naivity. Once you have consulted them, then we shall have an interesting discussion, I am sure.

cheers,
OJ

On September 16th, 2000, I responded,

I think that it is time to teach you the principles of evaluating the reliability of any document. In the world of literary scholars they use three tests to evaluate the reliability of any literature. Kindly view this on the page titled “Reliability of the Bible”. Hence with the evidence of Alberuni, none of your statements have any value unless you can establish the reliability of the literature you are quoting.

By the way, if one were to write a novel today, and fictitiously place the planets in a certain order, this would not date my novel would it? My dear chap, you have been brainwashed by the RSS/VHP, why don’t you seek the Truth for yourself?

On September 18th, 2000, OJ responded,

Do you seriously think that you are the first christian I am talking to? I mean, come on, I lived for 17 years in Mumbai, I witnessed the riots.  Missionaries have talked to me, and tried to show me the ‘true path’. Do you think that no one has ever tried to proselytise me?

Anyway, lets talk about this first. When I challenged Alberuni’s account, all I had to say that he was talking of the scribes, not of the priests. The brahmins did not write the vedas, the Rshis did, and the brahmins just passed them on from generation to generation. And the rendition of the sooktas from the Rveda has not changed in time, or because of place. A Maharashtrian brahmin may speak english in a different accent than a Tamil brahmin, but when it comes to reciting the Purushasukta, the sukta that outlines the superiority of the brahmins, they both sing it the same way, because saunskrut is a language in which there is no scope for deviation.  There is only one correct answer. Nothing else. Why else do you think they call it the language of the Gods?

 And when saunskrut such a perfect language where there is no scope for error, how can I rely on a foreigners account on the unreliability of indian (vedic) scribes? If his seemingly absurd sounding account is taken to be correct, that means that the commercial system at that point of time must have been in comeplete chaos, becuase people could not repeat what they had just written! It is known for a fact that, the revenue collection system in India has been very efficient since the times of Chandragupta Maurya, whose mentor, by the way, was a brahmin, and who apparently predates your beloved jesus christ by atleast 3000 years and is the author of the Arthashastra.  Please, take a break, I told you not answer the mail, if you did not answer the questions that I had asked. The delay suggests that you did some amount of research to find a plausible answer, which came to nothing, and hence you resorted to this allegation that the mahabharata is a fabricated story.

Hence with the evidence of

>Alberuni, none of your statements have any value unless you can establish

>the reliability of the literature you are quoting.

 What Alberuni had written was an account, so say you. And I say, what Vyaasa had written is also an account. So how can you believe alberuni’s account and reject vyaasa’s account as fabrication, just becuase it is older? Doesnt make sense, but then, proselytising missionaries were never known to make sense.

>By the way, if one were to write a novel today, and fictitiously place the

>planets in a certain order, this would not date my novel would it?

Well, so you are comparing the mahabharata to a novel. Do you know that if it was a novel it would be the largest damn novel in the history of mankind.  Lineages of 50 kings have been listed in the mahabharata. If it was just a novel, it could have revolved around two, three, five kings and thats it. If you were writing a novel, why would you note the positions of the planets? I mean, the vedic people had a calendar of their own, and there was no need for Vyaasa to dutifully note the positions of the planets, even to determine the date or time. Why would any novelist do that? Because he was writing an account.

I havent been brainwashed by the RSS/VHP (Why dont you decide which one you want to slander? The RSS or the VHP. Both are very different organisations and have a different agenda.)Though, i do not know whether any homosexual, paedophilic pastor has brainwashed you or not.

Okay tell me this. Do you know who the Zoroasters are? They are people from iran, fire worshippers like the hindus. The Gods in Hindu mythology were called Devas, and the Villians were called Asuras. Now in Zoroaster mythology, the Gods are called Ahuras and the Demons are called Daevas. The Hindus call the mighty river of the Vedas the Saraswati and the Zoroasters call it the Harasvati. The Zoroasters called the Sindhu as Hindu, and that is how the people of the Sindhu valley were named. How do you explain this similarity and discrepancy?

And the Iranian texts also claim to be as old as the Vedas. Now, if your theory has to stand, you have to fight two things, one, the Iranians, and two the Indians. I dont think there is any hope for you, the battle is won, well almost. Retreat and accept defeat. A true brahmin never loses in argumentative discussion, as the vedas are with him, forever. And the vedas are the truth.

The Asur Mahadev of the hindu myth is the Ahura Mazda of the Iranians. If one stands, so does the other, brahmins not in the picture, though if the Ahura Mazda is the truth, so are the vedas, and since the vedas are the truth, so is the purushasukta and since the purushasukta is the truth, the brahmins are the mouth of the purusha and hold the key to the universe.

I rest my case, atleast for the time being.

Aham Brahmasmi.
OJ.

 BTW - I would like you to know that I am a distant relative of Shri Nathuram Godse, the martyr who loved Hindusthaan more than his life.

I responded later that day,

You have missed the point again. The reliability of any document is established by three tests:

1. Bibliographical Evidence test

2. Internal Evidence test

3. External Evidence test

 To simply state that Brahmins accurately transmitted the Vedas orally is okay for the simple and illiterate, but not the educated. Hence dear chap you have to understand these basic principles and liberate yourself from the deceptions of the RSS/VHP.

While worldwide academic research is getting more diversified and focussed, touching off a boom in area-specific encyclopedias, dictionaries and other reference books, why did the Human Resource Development Ministry under Dr. Murali Manohar Joshi scrap a five-year old project which would have produced India’s first “Dictionary of Social, Economic and Administrative Terms in Indian Inscriptions”?

Wake up man, brahminism as propagated by the RSS/VHP is dead.

Kindly stay focused on producing scholarly evidence rather than regurgitating the propaganda of the RSS/VHP (the VHP is the religious wing of the RSS while the BJP is its political wing).

You state that, “Chandragupta Maurya, whose mentor, by the way, was a Brahmin”. This is a classic deception from the Puranas created during the Rajput period, however, scholars clearly refute this since there is no mention of this so called “mentor” by Megasthenes.

Regarding Zorastrianism, before Zoroaster (6^th century BC) the Iranians had a polytheistic religion and Mithra was the most important of their gods. However, Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic faith, displaces the importance of Mithra. Zoroaster’s teaching centered on Ahura Mazda, who is the highest god, creator of heaven and earth and alone is worthy of worship. My dear fellow, the Gospel that Zoraster preached, displaced the importance of your vedic deity. The vedic people worshipped nature, that is the created rather than the creator.

So my dear chap, kindly avoid jumping all over the place and focus on producing scholarly evidence for Sanskrit and the reliability of literature.

Sincerely,
Alex.

OJ responded later that day,

Fundamental technical difficulty.

If the brahmins came in after Christ, why did Buddha reject hinduism so resoundingly? Also, why does the Tholkappiyam, the ancient Tamil grammar text, which is dated at 200 bc, talk about various schools or vedic pronunciation, like taittreyam etc. If you did not know this, the Taittreya is a Samhita in the Yajurveda and is also a Brahmana and is also a Upanishad. That means, that the Taittreya, which existed at 200 BC (Tamil scholars have accurately dated the first Sangham and also the writing of the Tholkappiam) I have consulted my tamil friend about this, please double check this to ascertain his sources.

Well, so all said and done, it simply means that since a Tamil grammar text talks about a foreign language, there must have been quite some time for Saunskrut to influence Tamil. That means that Saunskrut existed, but much before the compilation of the Tholkappiam. Hence, we resounding arrive at the conclusion that vedic culture had not only reached South India at that point og time, but also had pretty much affected the nature of Tamil as a language. Also, you have to understnad that Saunskrut was more of a classical language like Latin, and was more or less used only by intellectuals, and the other people used Prakrut.

This clearly explains why Ashokas message was not in Suanskrut, for he was targetting the masses, not the intellectuals, who were opposed to their ideas anyway! This means that the Yajurveda predates Christ, and if the Yajur veda predates Christ, the Rveda and the Samaveda predate Christ by much more, and if the Rveda predates christ, that means that Brahminism predates christ, because the word Brahman is first used in the Rgveda. And if there were Brahmins before Christ, then the whole idea os syncretising Hindutva from Christianity falls flat on its face.

Thank you very much.

Please argue with the Tamil scholars if you want to. There is clear mention of the Namboodiri and the Tanjavur Ayyar vedic pronunciations.

So long,
OJ

On September 19th, I responded,

The manner in which you wildly wander all over the place shows the confusion within you. I trust that you are genuinely seeking the truth rather than fanatically trying to defend brahminism which is dead since the Truth has been exposed.

Let me set you straight on some basic facts. Your ancestors, a nomadic group, are called the vedic people basically due to their affinity to the vedic deities, which was a worship of nature. The first evidence in India is seen in the Sunga Dynasty, and when one studies the development of culture and religion in India in BC, it is seen that the vedic people had negligible input. In AD also the vedic people had no impact, and the religion of India was enriched by Christianity from the 1^st c AD. This was facilitated by the trade that existed between the Roman Empire and South India. However, during the time of the Rajputs, the vedic people/Rajput combine evolved into the caste system to control the political and religious power, and during this time the vedic people usurped and corrupted the theistic faith of the Hindus.

Regarding Ashoka, Ashoka regulated sacrifice, then he should have written his edicts in Sanskrit if it had existed since he wanted his writings to be read by all even in Greek and Aramaic. Also finding Tamil words in Sanskrit is not a mystery since Sanskrit derived words from all the earlier languages. Tamil literature is a key to understanding the religion of the Hindus which is essentially Saivism and Vaishnavism and the founding saints are all from the south.

Cheers OJ, Jesus loves you,
Alex.

PS. By the way, Buddha rejected sacrifice, and the Dravidian worship (seen from the Indus Valley) was sacrificial.

On September 20th, OJ emotionally responded,

Get your money back from MIT. I don’t  think it has done you any good. My question was as follows: I capitalise in the hope that it will enter your brain atleast now.

IF SAUNSKRUT CAME IN ONLY IN 150AD, WHY DOES THE THOLKAPPIAM, A TAMIL GRAMMAR TEXT, CLEARLY PROVEN TO BE BEFORE CHRIST, TALK ABOUT THE USAGE OF SAUNSKRUT WORDS IN TAMIL? WHY DOES IT TALK ABOUT THE TATTRIYAM SCHOOL OF VEDIC LITERATEURE, WHILE TAITTRIYAM IS A YAJURVEDIC SAMHITA, WHICH IS ONLY THE THIRD OLDEST VEDA?

The Brahmin’s Logical sequence:

[1] Tholkappiyam talks about taittryam.

[2] taittryam is a yajurvedic samhita.

conclusion : the yajurveda is as old as, if not older than, tholkappiyam.

[3] the was written around about the tamil sangham, that is, 200 B.C.

Conclusion: The Yajurveda is atleast as old as, if not older than 200 B.C.

[4] The yajurveda is only the third oldest veda.

Conclusion: The rveda and the samaveda are older than 200 b.c.

[5] The vedas are written in saunskrut.

Conclusion: Sanskrut is atleast, if not older than 500 b.c.  [Here 300 years have been added for the composition of the other two vedas, which are as three times the size of the english bible. So i think it is a fair estimate at the least.]

The above line of logiv irrefutably proves that saunskrut was around when christ was strung up on the cross. Well, what are you talking about christian beliefs enriching indian religions? Hell, there werent more than 2% christians in india at any point of time. This is what the archbishop of madras has said, go ask him. He said this in defence of accusations of forceful proselytisation. now i dont know if you are a baptist or a catholic, but anyway, you must be believing him more than you believe me.

So what i have proved to you is that saunskrut was around when christ was killed. Well, it may have been written down later, i agree, but it is definitely older.

The aryans were not a race, idiot. Do not kiss white ass. The aryan invasion theory was proposed to establish white domination on the world. It has been misproven again and over again, so please do not qoute from it. I dont get it, how can a nomadic people, who are not as sophisticated as the natives, and are 1/16^th in population to the natives, take over the natives without any help from the natives?

Now, the british did take over india when they were like 1/6^th in numbers, but mind you, they were technologically far superior and they also had indian regiments.

How possibly could have a group of cowherding people come and over-ran people who were building established cities? sounds incredible. The brahmins are as indigenous as the rest of indians, and you cannot refute the fact.  Genetic analysis has failed to show any similarity between the brahmins and the europeans.

Please do not bullshit like you are doing. I hope you consult a psychiatrist and a logician before you talk to me in the future.

Jesus is dead, and dead men tell no tales.

Aham Brahmasmi,
OJ

Later that day, I wrote,

Finally you have presented something that seems like evidence.

“WHY DOES THE THOLKAPPIAM, A TAMIL GRAMMAR TEXT, CLEARLY PROVEN TO BE BEFORE CHRIST, TALK ABOUT THE USAGE OF SAUNSKRUT WORDS IN TAMIL? WHY DOES IT TALK ABOUT THE TATTRIYAM SCHOOL OF VEDIC LITERATEURE, WHILE TAITTRIYAM IS A YAJURVEDIC SAMHITA, WHICH IS ONLY THE THIRD OLDEST VEDA?”

Kindly furnish the reference in the Tholkappiam where it talks about the Tattriyam School of Vedic literature.

Thanks,
Alex.

On September 21st, OJ wrote,

Even in ancient Tamil literature such as the commentaries on the first grammar TolkAppiyam, the Vedic schools of the region are referred to as pauzhiyam, taittiriyam, and talavakAram...  referring to the KauSItakins (pauzhiyam < pauSyam; pauSyam is a term indicative of the KauSitaki RV branch)... talavakAra refers to the Jaiminiya schoo as mentioned before.

They are all outlined in great detail in Wayne Howard’s “Samaveda Chant” Yale University Press 1977.

Please refer, I guess the MIT library must be having atleast some theology books....

Well, atleast you are asking for evidence now. This means that given the proper evidence, you are willing to listen. Good, you are not a missionary, after all, then.

The same day I responded,

I am deeply disappointed in you. I asked you to furnish the reference in the Tholkappiam where it talks about the Tattriyam School of Vedic literature, and instead you respond with the propaganda of the RSS/VHP. If you feel that Wayne Howard can help you, then read his book and come up with the necessary evidence.

Basically either put up or shut up.

Sincerely,
Alex.

Later the same day OJ responded,

Are you an idiot or something?

Why dont you look up in the Yale university press yourself?  Forget that, I have fresh evidence that proves beyond doubt that the vedas are atleast 3300 years old. If you go to www.britannica.com and search, you will discover that a tablet has been found in Central Asia bearing the names of Mitra, Varuna, Indra and other chief Rvedic Gods.

This tablet has been conservatively dated at 1300 BC.  Dont waste my time, dude, I dont have time to teach ignoramuses how to search for data on the internet. I hope the search for truth doesnt take you to hell.

Aham Brahmaasnmi,
OJ.

And OJ continued,

And tell me something, before I declare that your brain is filled with maggots, how is the Yale University press, RSS/VHP propaganda?

Take your filth out of my mailbox. Learn to accept defeat with grace.

Thats what Jesus was all about. He was a cool dude, you are not!

On September 22nd, 2000 I wrote,

The Boghazkoy evidence is referenced in my site (I trust that you understand). Ishwar Sharan has rightly classified you,

“The RSS/VHP seem to be a bogey for so many self-righteous people. I don’t know why. They are for the most part a spineless lot who engage in sham battles and wave sticks at each other.”

Kindly do not waste my time with your hand waving, however, I thank you for educating society on the deceit of the RSS/VHP. I will put your responses on a separate page and let society judge!

Sincerely,
Alex.

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