From: "vrnparker" Mailing-List: list vediculture@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:03:51 -0000 Subject: [world-vedic] Karma 2 Grace: dialogue between Christians and Hindus? "George" wrote: This site is a typical example of the renewed trend among certain blind believers of the Christian faith who make a charade in religious knowledge. In this case, it is one Wyatt Robertson who poses as an expert not only in Christianity, but also in the Vedas. On the home page though (see below) it is mentioned, "This site is maintained by Christians who are friends of Hindus." As one may imagine, and as the name Karma-Hindu to Grace-Christian denotes, it is an attempt by a wicked enemy of Hinduism to trap well-read, but unwitting Hindus. By using quotations at random from both the bible and the Vedic scriptures, Robertson first appears to compare similar concepts in each of them, but then goes on to pronounce very subtly that Christianity is the practical expression or Grace of that which is found in Hinduism and therefore, the better option. In the section termed 'Life Stories,' there are also supposedly actual stories of conversions of caste Hindus into Christianity. There is a section called 'Ask the Pundits,' where the said Robertson offers answers for all your doubts about Jesus and the Vedas. I have just sent in a query as follows: "According to Jesus, the poor are blessed. According to Siva, speaking through Sage Vasishta, poverty is hell. Both cannot be correct at the same time. What do you say about this?" I am waiting for the answer... G http://www.karma2grace.org/ Karma to Grace is a web site designed to promote dialogue between Christians and Hindus. The immediate aim of Karma to Grace is to present a comparison and contrast of and between the ideas of Christianity and Hinduism. It is our desire to present these ideas accurately and fairly. We want to see the basic concepts of Hinduism and Christianity explained and understood. Though you may not agree with everything presented here, we hope you will gain a greater understanding of the teachings of Hinduism and of Christianity. In some cases there are parallels in these teachings, and in some cases there are deep contrasts. We hope you will respect our attempt to let each idea speak for itself. There are several aspects of this site. The goal of dialogue and accurate explanation is aimed at in the first aspect of the site, the "Articles" section, as well as most of the other sections. The "Life Stories" section is a collection of true stories of those who have come from Karma to Grace, as the name of the web site suggests. This site is maintained by Christians who are friends of Hindus. If you are a Christian, we hope these ideas will clarify the teachings of Jesus and give you a basic grasp of Hinduism. If you are a Hindu, we hope that these ideas will clarify the teachings of Hinduism and give you a basic grasp of the teachings of Jesus. We hope the truth will speak for itself. From: "Ganesan" Mailing-List: list vediculture@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:09:16 +0530 Subject: Re: [world-vedic] Karma 2 Grace: dialogue between Christians and Hindus? Yes. This site is a madman's site full of motives only to dethrone and criticise Hindu practices and comparing with Christianity which as the truth is, does not have any philosophy worth the name and has only evangelists who are paid fanatics. It is not a dialogue at all only monologue with self proclaimed Robertson as Pundit. Why does he use the pure Sanskrit word pundit. Sooner they are removed from mother earth or at least from Bharat mata's soil better for the world. As the famous British Philosopher A.N. Whitehead put "Christianity is the greatest disasters of the modesrn civilisation" this disaster which shouts so much on Grace of God kept mute when Hitler annihilated Jews during II world war! Such is the grace of God!! Ganesan From: JanJM Mailing-List: list vediculture@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:16:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re world vedic Karma 2 Grace dialogue between Christians and Hindus Here's my short exchange with these folks: From: Jan Date: 10-May-04 07:28 (09:28 +0200) To: info karma2grace.org Subject: pundits? ------------------------------------------------------------ Namaste, I don't know by which standard you call yourself 'pundits' but the information level of your articles is quite low and they are often misleading. This can be understood if the prime purpose of your site is, contrary to your mission statement, a missionary activity but not pursuit of truth. Also the conversion stories suggest the earlier as they are always part of similar missionary sites. The majority hindu (correctly "Vedic") tradition is Vaisnavism. Please upgrade your knowledge of it from genuine sources like Srimad Bhagavata Purana, other Vaisnava Puranas, writings of Vaisnava acaryas, etc. Your understanding of hinduism comes from academic books related to current general hinduism which is rather degraded with its castes defined by birth, deva worship, etc., without deeper insight. At least you repeat all their misconceptions. Thus Trinity is not analogous to Trimurti Brahma-Visnu-Siva but to Krishna-Balarama-Paramatma; the grace - called prasada or anugraha - is very much present in Vaisnavism; there is cosmic sacrifice of Rg Vedic Purusa; there is a big difference between murtis and idols; the purpose of Vedic samhitas is different from Upanisads - therefore there is no reincarnation mentioned in them and the language is also different; there is a judgement after death; etc. For comparisons I suggest the writings of Brother David Sherman aka Bhakti Ananda Goswami at http://vaisnavi.com/saragrahi/columns/one/main.htm This letter is just to inform you, not to start a debate. All glory to the Lord, His Son and Holy Spirit. Your servant, bh. Jan www.veda.harekrsna.cz From: Internet: "Info" Date: 21-May-04 00:37 (20:37 -0400) To: Jan Subject: reply to your concern ------------------------------------------------------------ BH, Thank you so much for your input and interest in this site. Your concern for the Vaishnavite aspects of Hinduism is a valid concern. As you know, Hinduism is not one monolithic religion, but a conglomeration of different religions that happen to share some basic common doctrines. We try not to step into the middle of any contention between Hindu groups about who is the real Hindu, or who is the best or who is the most faithful to the Vedas, etc. Our articles try to remain general, but as you have pointed out, there are a few points where will not be exactly on the mark with Hare Krishnas or Tantras or Sai Baba or New Age or Vendatic Hinduism. Names and tags are difficult as some groups use them with different meanings (e.g. Vedic). As you listed several of your concerns, I can see where the Vaishnavite views, and specifically the devotees of Krishna will not see their viewpoint represented in a few points (e.g. Krishna- Balarama-Paramatma as the Trimurti). However, most of your points I think are clearly in the scope of this site. We have lived in India, met with Hindu students groups to discuss Hinduism, met with temple priests, dialogued in public with Hindus, etc. If you think we have unfairly represented Hinduism, it would be helpful for you to be specific with the article section of the site and point out where we can be more correct. We are very open to amending anything there that is not true if that can accurately be pointed out to us. We have actually made a few small changes from others who have made suggestions Thank you again for you interest and the time you took to email us. Wyatt, for Karma to Grace From: Jan Date: 21-May-04 11:16 (13:16 +0200) To: "Info" Subject: reply to your concern ------------------------------------------------------------ Namaste Wyatt, thanks for your reply. > We try not to step into the middle of any > contention between Hindu groups about who is the real Hindu, or > who is the best or who is the most faithful to the Vedas, etc. It's enough to differentiate among monotheistic, monistic and polytheistic versions. "Who's the best/most faithful to the Vedas" is a matter of age-long debate... > Our articles try to remain general, but as you have pointed out, > there are a few points where will not be exactly on the mark with > Hare Krishnas or Tantras or Sai Baba or New Age or Vendatic > Hinduism. Names and tags are difficult as some groups use them with > different meanings (e.g. Vedic). Vaisnavas apply the term "Vedic" to all srutis, smritis and itihasas based on texts like Bhagavata Purana 3.12.39 and Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.2,4. > As you listed several of your > concerns, I can see where the Vaishnavite views, and specifically > the devotees of Krishna will not see their viewpoint represented in > a few points (e.g. Krishna-Balarama-Paramatma as the Trimurti). Krishna-Balarama-Paramatma are not analogous to Trimurti but to Holy Trinity. It's a result of an extensive study, though not (as yet) a general knowledge. > If you think we have unfairly represented Hinduism, it > would be helpful for you to be specific with the article section of > the site and point out where we can be more correct. We are very > open to amending anything there that is not true if that can > accurately be pointed out to us. We have actually made a few small > changes from others who have made suggestions Thank you again for > you interest and the time you took to email us. I don't have time for a thorough analysis of your site - I mentioned only those subjects which caught my attention. General advice would be to drop the term 'hinduism' in favor of vaisnavism, saivism and saktism and differentiate among monotheistic, monistic and polytheistic versions. You'd also dislike if some lumped you together with Judaism and Islam under such artificial term as 'jordanism'. (see http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/vaisnavism.htm ) Why not oppose monotheism's main enemy, monism, which is very established (at least among the elite philosophers) in eastern traditions, and is a basis of 'New Age'? I understand that there are more and more Christians falling to this trap. Your servant, bh. Jan www.veda.harekrsna.cz (Bhakti-yoga Vedic Encyclopedia Vedic Library Links) Date:4.8.2004 12:13 From:"Ashok Chowgule" To:vediculture@yahoogroups.com Cc:janjm@seznam.cz, y.frances@tiscali.fr, info@karma2grace.org Stages of dialogue Having looked at various literature on Hindu-Christian dialogue, I have come to the conclusion that the whole exercise has effectively been a sham. I have read papers over the last fifty years which talk about the need for a dialogue and the methodology. Then the papers say that the dialogue should be to determine what is common between the two philosophies. Finally they end up with lamenting that given the tensions in the society, the dialogues are not moving forward. The reason why the dialogues have been a sham is because of a refusal to discuss what are the differences. Hence, I think a dialogue should have the following four steps: One: The objective of a dialogue is to find out if there are differences between two groups. If there are no differences then the dialogue becomes unnecessary. Two: If there are differences, the next step is to find out if they could be a source for tensions between the groups. If they are not, then further dialogue does not become necessary. Three: If they are a source of tension, then dialogue should try and work out how these can be reduced if not eliminated. If this is achieved, then again no further dialogue is necessary. Four: If the differences create tension, then a dialogue is necessary to effectively appropriate the blame, so that there is a proper understanding of action and reaction. Namaste. Ashok Chowgule, President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra