Alt.Atheism Kooks   Welcome! This is an unofficial list and description of some of the religious kooks that hang around alt.atheism a lot. The requirements for inclusion in this guide are as follows: Must be a theist Must be consistently irrational Must be obnoxious and/or annoying to alt.atheism regulars Must post regularly and in reasonably large volume NOTE: Theists who are not consistently annoying are not eligible for inclusion! They must be unusually god-soaked. Send comments, additions, corrections, submissions, thoughts, kudos, vitriol and/or marriage proposals to [email protected] Contributors: randall g, Susan Mitchell, Stix and Victor (MindFlayer) Danilchenko. Alphabetical Index Berry AKA: Brice Wellington AKA: BriceBrice, BriceW Man of GOD!, child molester [Name deleted] Diana Newman AKA: newman <spit!> EGordon AKA: G. Mark Stewart AKA: Gladys AKA: J<censored>y AKA: Nameless Jahnu Das AKA: Jill E. Deel AKA: Jim Nichols AKA: Joe Long AKA: John P. Boatwright AKA: Bleatwright, Boatwrong, Scrotemite, Bloatwhore, Shitforbrains, Blurtspew, Boring Idiot Barfworm, O' He Who Pisses On The Rug, Bloatox, Barfweasel, Burpwaste, Bilgeworm, Buttwriggler Lim CK AKA: (various) OldguyTech AKA: Ed Croteau, Oldfart rec.org.mensa AKA: Joe Long, Ross Williams, G. Mark Stewart, and various others Richard Micheal Schiller AKA: ForeRunner, Elijah-* Riley Sinder AKA: Ross Williams AKA: The Sage AKA: Sam Lopez AKA: (none?) Todd Benzer AKA: Zoner, Saved Soul   Lim CK AKA: (various) Religion: Muslim Favorite fallacies: Argument from personal incredulity, ad hominem, Pascal's Wager, wishful thinking, argument from authority, belief that length lends credibility. Quirks: Considers his personal fear of death and desire for vengeance as reason to believe in God. Annoying habits: Changes alias constantly to avoid killfiles. Reposts same message multiple times under several titles. Possibility of rationality: epsilon at best. Description: LimCK is a Malaysian Muslim, who seems to consider that atheists are responsible for all the evils on the earth; in 1999 he has in particular blamed the (largely Christian-committed) Kosovo atrocities on atheism. Has a nearly pathological fear of death. Construes objections to his breaches of netiquette as vindication of his view of atheists as evil. His argument for the existence of God basically boils down to "Mohammed was an ignorant goat-herd and couldn't have achieved what he did without direct divine intervention; therefore, the Qur'an is the word of God". Likes to quote Western 'authorities' (from early 19th century historians to George Bernard Shaw) in support of Mohammed's status as a 'great man'; seems to think that such status somehow automatically proves God's existence as well. Has occasionally engaged in conversation (apart from hit-and-run trolls); in them his tactic is to flood his opponent out.   OldguyTech AKA: Ed Croteau, Oldfart Religion: Roman Catholic Synopsis: There is some speculation that Ed is an elaborate troll, but he claims to be 80+ years old with 19 children. He has made it his personal mission in life to rid the Internet of sex and profanity, beginning (and probably never ending) with alt.atheism. Generally he responds only to "cuss words" with barely comprehensible, meandering prose. His spelling and grammar are atrocious and it is often hard to decipher any meaning from his posts. Theologically uninteresting, Ed simply accepts standard Catholicism without question or even much knowledge, and rarely bothers to discuss anything related to atheism or theism, apart from being titillated pink at how sexually immoral atheists are. While he never says anything spectacular, and his posts are almost entirely devoid of interest (humourous or otherwise), Ed's sheer bloodymindedness is now sufficient to elevate him to kookhood. Funny Moments: In all seriousness he has attempted the following online exorcism: Be gone Satan from this helper of yours. You have him twisted to your will , you have suceeded in foiling this poor soul, again in Jesus name I say begone. Set this soul free, and the souls of all the misguided one in here. We cast out that demon of profanities, of smut, of rampant sexual desires. In Jesus name. AMEN. Obsessions: Very obsessed with sex and profanity - apparently he thinks about little else. Brain Trouble: Is probably mildly retarded. Favourite Fallacy: N/A - he never actually makes an argument. Positive Points: Unlikely to go postal. Obituaries: Ed Crouton, crotchety self-styled netcop on alt.atheism, reaped his heavenly reward by speeding though a red light. A witness of the accident, Mr. Alan Ferris, said, "It was horrible. He ran the light and I heard him shout just before his Edsel was crushed under the eighteen-wheeler, "Oh, Fuck! Oh, Shit! Oh, Crotte! Oh, Freaking Jesusssssss!" Elroy Willis, the Massachusetts State Highway Patrolman in charge of the accident investigation reported that the trunk of the Edsel, the only part of the automobile which was still intact, was filled to the latch with pornographic magazines and films. The victim's son Ed Crouton, Jr. explained his father's obsession with "filth". "Dad always said that you had to get a little dirty to appreciate how clean the Lord could make you," said Ed Jr. "I remember him watching an Italian film about some girl named Sandy 15 times just to make sure that it was really vile. Then, he marched right down to the store that sold him that video and the 22 others and demanded that they get rid of the filth like they sold him." Mrs. Crouton, when informed of the accident, stated, "God works in mysterious ways. Nobody really liked Ed. Maybe he will make some friends in heaven, or wherever his is now. LOL He had so much time of his hands that he would feverishly post hundred of nonsense messages a day to those folks on that atheism group. The good thing was it kept him out of my way." When interviewed, Therion Ware, a member of the usenet group said, "Poor Ed, we hardly knew ye. That's not quite right. Poor Ed, we knew ye too well." One person, though, did have a kind word to say about Mr. Crouton, but he requested to remain anonymous. Roy (name has been changed for obvious reasons) explained that he met Mr. Crouton when he was a prison guard and Roy was a young, good-looking inmate with sweet lips. Roy noted, "Mr. Crouton always kept me from being roughed up by the stronger prisoners and I will always be thankful to him for that. I think that I gave him a spiritual experience which will be the closest to heaven that he ever will approach." - Liz He fawt eVIL with all the stregnth he couwd muster Here lyes Oldguyteck, kyller of CUSSARDS! LOL! he difended the fayth aginst atheists and smut Frome his keyboard whereon he sat on his butt Yea, not spellchecking nor making anye sinse posting all the day with pisse in his depends He shirley was a saint, this Oldguyteck Pounding out his [theistic]dreck LOL! - Medieval Knievel   Edward Crouteau left our world yesterday, when his god called him home as I think Ed might say. Ed lived a full life I suspect he would claim, but was haunted by Satan and his evil flame. Ed hated bad words and was known to get cross, he'd cry 'ZIP IT' you fools, thinking we gave a toss. Ed was a man who had faith in his bible, but for murder Ed said that his God's just not liable. Edward Croteau was in love with the Pope, and was known to wash out his kids' mouths with bar soap. Ed thought he was right and all others were wrong, and refused to acknowledge it's nice just to say Spong. "You cussards are vile" Ed would scream all the time, and I wanted to slap him much like a street mime. Go away go away we would tell Oldguyteck, dinner's over for you and you must pay the check. - Elroy   Diana Newman AKA: Religion: Mormon Synopsis: After an absence of six months, Newman made an encore appearance on alt.atheism in March 1998, ostensibly as a result of a cross-post. "Having been made aware of that fact", she promised to leave the newsgroup protesting that her presence on alt.atheism was an innocent mistake. As of the latter part of July, she had still not left. Her stated reason for remaining in alt.atheism is "to discuss atheism", but she devotes the preponderance of her writing towards demonstrating that atheism is fallacious and associated with evil. She spends an inordinate amount of time dictating the "proper" behavior and the "allowable" attributes for atheists, although she is quick to claim that theists are not reciprocally answerable to atheists. Newman disdainfully argues that since atheists do not believe in god, atheists do not have beliefs, and thus atheists' rights regarding beliefs do not exist. Newman often uses a self-pitying, petulant mode of posting interspersed with a sanctimonious, haughty manner when caught in a contradiction or misstatement of fact. Her fallback position is always that theistic beliefs supersede any other type of conviction, and that those beliefs are only subject to the rationale of those who hold them. An obligation to respect those beliefs consequently falls upon the atheist. According to Newman, theists possess special "rights and privileges" that are unavailable to atheists. She contends that freedom from religion is not protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution, but, in fact, should be prohibited as a "dangerous" idea. In an effort to further her objectives, she uses invidious tactics including, but not limited to: changing her position in an argument while maintaining the pretense that it was her original position, attempting to pit one atheist against another, flinging strawmen into the discussion, shifting the argument to peripheral issues, making unjust accusations, and lying. Her favorite stratagem is to phrase a declaration in such a weasel-like manner that when it is proven false or contradictory, she can allege it referred only to a unique circumstance. Unusual Features: Newman's posts present the recurring theme, echoed even in totally unrelated threads, that leaders of communist regimes (e.g., Pol Pot) committed atrocities because of atheism. Favorite Fallacy: She insists that subjective experience is proof of God's reality. Positive Points: She lives in Utah. Possibility of Rationality: None involving theism. In other areas, although dogmatic about sex and morality, she seems functional.   Rec.org.mensa AKA: Joe Long, Ross Williams, G. Mark Stewart, various others Religion: Various nonspecific flavours of Christianity Synopsis: Apparently, this is a Usenet newsgroup devoted entirely to stroking the egos of a small, dedicated core of Internet-connected Mensa members. The requirements for joining Mensa are the ability to score within top 2% on a standard WASP oriented IQ test. Needless to say, this sort of people aren't the most fun at parties. Recently, for some reason, they have decided to dedicate a huge amount of personal time and energy having what is known as "flame wars" with alt.atheism. Some background for newbies: A flame war is the concerted effort by one group of people, who know each other from their home newsgroup, to invade and annoy another newsgroup. Generally this takes the form of posting stupid, annoying things that are deliberately engineered to piss off the regulars of the target newsgroup. The first first flame war was started by alt.bigfoot against rec.pets.cats a few years ago (I know the guy who started it. I'm serious). They started posting questions about how best to put down their girlfriend's cat without her finding out. Needless to say the regulars of rec.pets.cats were horrified by this and hilarity ensued. It even rated a mention in Wired magazine. You get the picture. The invasion of ROM is similar, with the notable exception that they aren't fooling anyone. All they have done is proved that honesty, consistency, rationality, and intelligence are not positively correlated with IQ scores.   Joe Long Religion: Seems to be a weak (non-fundy) xian, or a generic theist. Synopsis: A man with some brains, a member of Mensa and a rec.org.mensa regular, he nevertheless is extremely fond of his selective perceptions. Keeps claiming that atheism is based on faith. Keeps using dictionary definitions without providing citing them in full, because the full ones actually would work against him. Claims that everyone who offers counterarguments is using strawmen; states that god-belief is different from, say, leprechaun-belief simply because people hold it. Mannerisms: Repetitive, somewhat hard to reason with, but not excessively insulting. Fallacies: Strawman, ad numeram, proof by blatant assertion. Possibility of rationality: Some, but tends to "forget" his defeats after a few days. Positive points: Easy to brush off, not very aggressive and persistent.   Ross Williams Religion: Apparently generic weak theism. Synopsis: A rather intelligent man, a member of Mensa, and a regular of rec.org.mensa. Excercises selective perceptions. Likes to tell everyone to go to Logic 101, even though his own knowledge of logic is obviously incomplete. Seems to have a training in humanities. Claims that lack of god-belief in newborns is not actually a lack of belief, but rather is a mysterious "null-value", which is neither belief nor lack of belief (defying the axiom of excluded middle right there). Mannerisms: Smarter-than-thou, disdainful. Fallacies: Proof by blatant assertion, ad hominem, strawman, various direct violations of logic axioms. Possibility of rationality: High, but starts playing word games if pushed to the wall. Positive points: Actually possible to have a debate with, although such debates usually quickly grow repetitive.    G. Mark Stewart Religion: Unknown, seems to believe self to be an agnostic or a weak atheist. Synopsis: A member of Mensa and a regular of rec.org.mensa, he has nevertheless not displayed any signs of intelligence, unless you count creative insults as such. Good at jibes, but not at actual debate. He simply states that he is always right, and leaves things at that; when cornered, simply does not respond, or responds with more insults. Mannerisms: Unwilling to take a stand, engages in insult wars and word juggling, acts as if he is the most intelligent one out there, despite glaring problems with his thinking and education. Fallacies: Proof by blatant assertion, ad hominem. Possibility of rationality: Some, but don't expect it to last. Positive points: None. Simply an annoying gnat.   Jahnu Das Religion: Hare Krishna Synopsis: Has an utter disdain for humans and human achievement. Would prefer to live in primitive conditions. Prefers celibacy. Thinks he has perfect knowledge and all others are badly deluded. Thinks one can achieve Nirvana through chanting. Tends to post intensely for a while, get disgusted at the stupidity of the atheists, and vow never to post again. Is likely to be back soon. Mannerisms: Has a consistently insulting and disdainful attitude. Dismisses all arguments with "you're an idiot." Evolution Strawman: Amoeba grew legs and learned to talk Favourite Fallacies: Ad hominem, personal incredulity Possibility of Rationality: None Positive Points: Has as much disdain for Christians as atheists. Jahnoovian logic 101. ===================== Rule 1) If it's not in the vedas, or not what Jahnoo believes, it's wrong. Rule 2) When presented with evidence, ignore it, bleat strawmen, and refer back to rule 1. Rule 3) Chanting to smurfs is the only way to gain knowledge. If questioned about such bizarre practices, refer to rule 1. Rule 4) When asked to defend the vedas, refer to rule 1. Rule 5) When asked for evidence, refer to rule 1. Rule 6) When all else fails, refer to rule 1. Links:   Variations on Jahnu's sig message (under humor)   John P. Boatwright AKA: Bleatwright, Boatwrong, Scrotemite, Bloatwhore, Shitforbrains, Blurtspew, Boring Idiot Barfworm, O' He Who Pisses On The Rug, Bloatox, Barfweasel, Burpwaste, Bilgeworm, Buttwriggler Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown Synopsis: Though earnest at first, has now realized all debate is fruitless and mostly fires off sarcastic wisecracks. Likes to taunt atheists about stupid things that never really happened like O'Hair's embezzlement and Carl Sagan's deathbed conversion. Apparently has technical education yet uses the "Goddidit" explanation for absolutely everything. Puts a lot of effort into mathematically warping Genesis to fit the known history of the universe, but has little knowledge of mathematics or physics. Is ignored by serious atheist writers, except as a convenient whipping boy. Unusual Features: Likes to take NASA pictures of deep space nebulae and Rorshach them into bodily parts of God, Jesus and/or Mother Mary. Recent Update: Is attempting to prove that a God-day is 1.84 billion years so Genesis is scientifically correct about the age of the universe. Favourite Fallacy: Personal incredulity Positive Points: Writes short posts. Update: Has taken to writing long posts which leaves him without a positive point. Possibility of Rationality: Long shot moderate. Update: Downgraded to none. Links: Click here for a summary of John's science and strawmen. (under humor)   J<censored>y AKA: Nameless Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown Synopsis: Probably the most persistent of our kooks, he is very earnest about proving the Old Testament is factually correct. Goes on and on about the remains of Noah's ark and Egyptian chariot parts in the Red Sea. Claims to possess bits of brimstone from Sodom and Gomorrah. Quotes hearsay from discredited archeologists but never provides any evidence or even references, often refering to "soon-to-be-released" videos and books. Thinks there are big conspiracies suppressing this stuff. Recently has been insisting that virginity is positively correlated with "good mind" -- seems unable to break free of the madonna/whore imagery. Update: has taken to constantly changing fake names in order to avoid killfiles. (See link below for list) Unusual Features: It was decided some time ago to never mention his name again. Usually refered to as J<censored>y or "Nameless". Favourite Fallacy: Ad nauseam Positive Points: Rarely condemns anyone to Hell, usually remains cheerfully upbeat despite constant refutations and ridicule. Appears harmless. Possibility of Rationality: Slight Links: Full list of known Usenet aliases   Riley Sinder Religion: None - not a person Synopsis: Not a person - is a project of grad psych students at the Univerity of Chicago who are studying newsgroup interaction. Only talks about teaching fundamentalist Christianity in schools. Defines religion as "anything a group of people have in common." Is deliberately stupid to provoke reactions. Says the same few things over and over.   Gladys Religion: She has invented it herself and never given it a specific name. It consists of attempting to determine and follow the moral laws of a creator goddess called Talula, who just wants everybody to have sex all the time. Oddly, there are no other followers. Synopsis: Fancies herself a world-class philosopher, a great lioness wrestling with mere mortals. Affects an air of flowery superiority. Refers to herself in the third person. Takes inspiration from Tori Amos lyrics. Favourite Fallacy: Tautology. Entire philosophy rests on the axiom "Everything was created or not created". Assumes it's a 50-50 tossup. Brain Trouble: Has a goddess complex. Imagines herself as a powerful and loving mother figure, suckling baby atheists at her breast. Possible incestuous connotations. Positive Points: Has the best damn religion I've ever heard of. When the Christians take over and force everyone to pick a religion at gunpoint, I will be giving Gladys a call. Note from the editors: Recently it was suggested in the newsgroup that Gladys is in fact a middle-aged man with some serious psychological problems. You can read all about it in the analysis of Brian Voth (see link below). Links: An Untitled Poem by Stix (under humor) Analysis by Brian Voth.   The Sage Religion: Some new-agey crap he made up himself Synopsis: The Sage is probably the longest running troll in alt.atheism history. Is consistently stupid and annoying in order to perpetuate arguments as long as possible. Favourite tactic is to claim extensive knowledge of physics and cosmology, and get it all wrong. This results in many of those who know better correcting him, and getting drawn up in an endless quagmire, which apparently brings great joy and meaning to the Sage's life. Is similar to Boatwright, but has some education, and is not Biblical. It is likely that he knows he is wrong. Many of his errors seem deliberate. Has way too much time on his hands. Favourite Fallacy: Red Herring, and whatever it's called when you change the argument, and whatever it's called when your statements are downright incorrect Brain Trouble: Desperate need for attention Positive Points: Doesn't push religion Links:   Sage's Homepage   EGordon Religion: His own version which he calls "Veridican". Synopsis: Admits to being a troll. Thinks himself to be extremely intelligent, but gets upset when he is talked to in anything more that average layman's level; accuses scientists of using the scientific lingo (even in the most rudimentary form, with all the appropriate definitions) for the purpose of confusing everyone else. Hates atheists and gays (and I can only imagine who else); thinks atheists are subhuman. Claims to deliberately provoke hate, as it "gives him power", and acts as if he wins every time someone flames him. Suggests harvesting atheists for organs. Mannerisms: Deliberately insulting and disdainful. Has a habit of simply saying "I won" when he loses. Favourite Fallacy: To quoque, ad hominem, strawman; trolls for emotional reaction. Brain trouble: Probably pathologically hungry for attention, mild delusions of grandeur, seems to be slightly insane. Positive Points: A lot of fun to defeat, if you can wade through his idiocy. Possibility of Rationality: Some, but has to be ego-crushed first.   Defunct Kooks The following kooks have died or otherwise vanished from alt.atheism, but will live forever in our memories.   Sam Lopez Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown Synopsis: Thinks atheists are all mad at God. Usually not insane enough to be very interesting. Is unable to address any points made, and says little more than "I know you are but what am I". Unusual Features: Has a 30 line sig. Update: has shortened his sig, but it now refers to talking integrated circuits. Possibility of Rationality: Slight   Jim Nichols Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown Synopsis: Severe redneck. Worships a very anti-gay and Old Testament-style judgemental fire and brimstone god. Is uneducated and proud of it. Makes up definitions and spellings for words. Discusses homosexuality a lot. Was the inspiration for the creation of the alt.atheism atheist list. Threats: Regularly condemns atheists to Hell, seems to take a lot of pleasure in this. Favourite Fallacies: Might makes right Quotes : Athiests dont CONVERT to anything. : They are set apart (santified) for burning in Hell. : (anathema maranatha). : Everyone has a purpose. Positive Points: More entertaining than most. Possibility of Rationality: None   Todd Benzer AKA: Zoner, Saved Soul Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown. Synopsis: Major asshole. Lies a lot, consistently misrepresents others' positions. Short attention span, makes things up as he goes along. Style is dull, says nothing new. Would kill his own children if God told him to. Favourite Fallacies: strawman, circular, ad hominem, Pascal, ad nauseum Positive Points: None. Is not even entertaining. Possibility of Rationality: None   Brice Wellington AKA: BriceBrice, BriceW Man of GOD!, child molester Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown, possibly of his own devising. Is a twisted combination of Fundamentalist Christianity and pre-Vatican II Catholicism. Synopsis: Completely bonkers. Obsessed with sex and masturbation: claims that foreplay is sinful, that cancer is caused by "inherited sin," that female masturbation causes children yet unconceived to develop Down's syndrome, and that he himself lost a testicle to masturbation. Has admitted to physically checking his teenage daughters for virginity. Unusual Characteristics: Claims to have personally visited Heaven, Hell, and "the Lake of Fire". Does not use Biblical references, preferring to quote from his own lengthy list of hallucinations. Note: Recent postings, apparently from Brice, may be forgeries or trolls Positive Points: Vastly entertaining Possibility of Rationality: Minus Links:   Psycho Dave's Brice Wellington FAQ   Jill E. Deel Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown Synopsis: Strident, shrill pro-lifer. Totally one-track mind. Goes on and on about late-term abortions. Never addresses questions or replies posed to her. Postulated to be a creation of a fundamentalist organization. If true, it's too bad that she's so dull. Possibility of Rationality: None   Richard Micheal Schiller AKA: ForeRunner, Elijah-* Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown. Is a loner wing-nut, probably not a member of an actual church. Synopsis: Self-proclaimed prophet who has been predicting the end of the world for some time now, most recently March 24/97. This hasn't fazed him though, and he's still going full steam ahead, likely to continue predicting the imminent apocolypse until the day he dies. Uses incomprehensible stream-of-consciousness style with flowery biblical style language, probably like his adopted namesake. Never adresses the points of posts he responds to. Adopts a wide variety of names to avoid killfiles. Loves getting junk email, thinks it is personal attention. Brain Trouble: Delusional psychotic who exhibits many classical symptoms of insanity. Suffers severe mood swings when he neglects his medication. Probably the most disturbed of all the alt.atheism kooks, he has been voted "Most likely to take out a K-Mart." Will get locked up if he leaves his computer and attempts to interact in person with others. Mannerisms: Does not respond well to ridicule. Takes it all very personally and can become quite agitated when pushed. Is fun to watch. Martyr Complex: Severe Positive Points: Will kill himself soon. Possibility of Rationality: Can't see the bend from here.   Berry Religion: Fundamentalist Christian, sect unknown. Synopsis: Berry has been very boring up until now (June 4/97) and consequently not worth including in this web page, which is reserved only for the true masters. While posting in huge volume, everything he's said has been nothing but short petty homilies, pansy rebukes, and meaningless incredible assertions. However, he has recently promised the following: And aftermuch thought and prayer, I have decided that I cannot leave after all. But the kid gloves come off. I will bluntly and completly expose atheism for the fantasy it is and continue to hope that those who suscribe to it will get their head out of the sand before it's too late. So we are all hoping for great things. Berry, your entry awaits! Post away! Give us a taste of your madness! Caution: May be a fundybot created by bored MZ $erfs.