From jahnu@wineasy.se Thu Oct 24 15:25:37 1996
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: "FARE WELL, O ATHEISTS"
From: jahnu@wineasy.se (Jahnu dasa)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:25:37 GMT


So now the time for me has come to terminate my stay in this forum. I
have been here for more than one year, and now I am getting out of
here. Initially I thought I'd meet some thoughtful, sincere seekers in
this forum. I actually did meet a few thoughtful persons, altough
calling them seekers would be a little far fetched, but I have to say
that the majority of people frequenting this group, is as fanatical,
dogmatic, foolish, and closeminded as any fundamentalistic Christian
I've ever come across.

You are fundamentalistic because you blindly believe in empiricism.
You are dogmatic, because you blindly believe that matter causes
consciousness, and because you blindly believe what the scientists
tell you. You are foolish because you are beyond logic and reason -
you don't even understand that your perceptions of reality is as
subjective and limited as that of any socalled religionist - and you
are closeminded because you stick fanatically to your paradigm that
material science offers the most valid method for understanding
reality as it is.

In fact you have a lot in common with the Christians. Like them you
think time is linear, i.e. that time begins at a certain point and
then stretches out into infinity, and like them you have a quite short
history of human society. Like the Christians you don't believe in
existence beyond this body; like them you believe that we are this
body, and that we didn't exist before coming into this life. Like them
you think that sense gratification is the aim of life, and like them
you think that it is not possible to gain knowledge of God.

And like them you are incapable of arguing for your position on the
basis of logic, reason and common sense, as well as observable
reality.

You have actually a lot in common, and I guess this is why you are
both locked up in the duality of love and hate, attraction and
aversion. Maybe this also explains why the atheists here seem to be
incapable of transcending thier conception of religion as being
anything but church dogma.

You claim that I don't argue for my position. But, contrary to anyone
here, I have given many examples of logic and reason to substantiate
my stance. And none of you have been able to defeat them.

None of you have ever explained why it is more logical to assume that
matter causes conscious awareness, when observable reality tells us
that consciousness causes awareness and that matter does not cause
conscious awareness. Still, contrary to observable reality, and
despite the fact that you have never been able to demonstrate how this
is so, you fanatically stick to the fable that matter causes
consciousness, and then even proceed to call it science. This is
indeed pure rascaldom.

Charles M.Vest, a noted scientist and the president of MIT, has
compiled a list of all the things empirical science is ignorant of. 
Now dig this. Here are a few points from his list:

"Science does nor know how we learn and remember, nor how we think and
communicate, nor how the brain stores information, nor what the
relationship between language and thought is. Science does not know
how living cells interact with nonliving matter. It does not know what
the origin of the universe is, nor how old the universe is, not what
the ultimate fate of the universe will be." (International Herald
Tribune, January 16, 1996, p. 8).

So as you can see, science doesn't know much. All these questions are
elaborately dealt with in the Vedic litterature, and the Vedic version
can be scientifically investigated and confirmed.

Anyway, it is clear that the majority of you people are not the least
interested in finding out the truth, but are actually only interested
in having your biased and preconceived dogmas confirmed.

I have also given you the argument, that there is a difference between
the inner seer and that which is seen, or the observer and that which
is observed. This can be substantiated by the fact that the inner
identity of an individual remains the same despite the fact that the
body undergoes changes from childhood to youth to old age.

The fact that the inner identity, the I-ness, the observer, the seer,
the soul, remains constant despite the chemical changes of the body,
and throughout all the different transitions of the body, from
boyhood, to youth, to old age, suggests that we are not this body.
Nobody has ever defeated that argument. How could you anyway? It is
the argument that Krishna offers in the Bhagavad Gita. You may say
that drugs and chemicals influence our consciousness, but the argument
still holds, since it is the same individual, the same I-ness, that
observes the mind being chemically altered.

I also asked you why it is that my astrological chart so precisely can
describe my personality, and predict different major events and
transitions of my life both in the past, present and the future. The
last of course remains to be seen. This also cannot be explained by
material science.This you also find convenient not to address. 

Actually, a part from having provided us with technology - by which we
destroy the planet and its inhabitants at a not so slow rate - science
has not provided us with any clear answers to the essential questions
of life. Nor has it freed us from misery, frustration, boredom,
hopelessness, disease, old age and death.

Still you claim that this is the most sane approach to discerning
reality. I mean, how foolish can you get? Anyway, I am out of here.
You won't hear from me again in this forum. I realize that I have
maybe not been so expert at presenting the Vedic version, and that I,
in the attempt to do so, spilled a lot of my false ego over you guys.
Please excuse me for that. Will you believe me if I tell you that I
always had the best of intentions? 

Sometimes it is hard to remain calm and well mannered when opposed by
low-class persons like Stix and Max. Actually many of the persons here
are like that. I just pick them out because they stand out as
especially gross, coarse and disinterested in anything that cannot be
stuffed into the mouth.

As an end note I would like to inform you all that John D.Leckie is
lying when he says that my ISP has told him that recently 3 complaints
have been filed against me, and that they need 10 to close me down.
Before John ran whining to my ISP, there has only been one complaint
against me, and that was one year ago, by that fool Arturo Magidin.
He complained that I was rude to him. Can you imagine that? Rude??
In alt.atheism??!!! I mean, how lame can you get?

Now John Leckie is complaining that I am insulting and off topic here.
Still he sends me one private post after another insulting me and
blaspheming and bickering about the points that he thinks are off
topic. I mean, how lame can you get?

Anyway, as I said, I am out of here. I won't respond to any comments
in the conference, whatever they are. In fact I won't even see them.
If you have something you want to discuss, you may write me privately.
That you can also do if you can't tolerate me having the last word and
want to shout obscenities at me. In that case, don't expect an answer.

Fare Well, O atheists! When the time comes for you to change your body
and you will be full of fear, because in your ignorance you won't be
able to cope with what is happening, try and remember the name of
Krishna. Then everything will be alright.

Regards

- Jahnu

-Jahnu

http://www.users.wineasy.se/storm/
http://www.webcom.com/~ara/