This one I haven't answered yet. What would you say? If you like you can comment on it. Here is something. A first attempt. Chose to include what you think fitting. ys bh. Jan ----------------- smedley wrote: >Well, Jahnu's true colors are finally revealed. > >He is a lunatic. Pointless and unecessary accusations. >I am an atheist. I don't suggest that. Have you been taking >straw-man lesson from John McCoy? You are the one who assumes >that an afterlife is necessary in order for life to have meaning. Let's see how Webster defines this creature: "The person who denies or disbelieves the existence of supreme person or persons." So the verbs "denies" or "disbelieves" express a negation. The negation obviously comes as a reaction on something existing - there is no use to negate something which doesn't exist, right? So you have to have some idea of God in your mind which you negate. My question is: what is that idea and why do you negate it? Give some reasonable evidences, please. >You are the one who assumes that an afterlife is necessary in order >for life to have meaning. If afterlife is not necessary then why all the living entities have their inborn instinct to live as long as possible? Why do you so carefully maintain and protect your body (food, medicare, old age insurances of all kinds etc.)? And would you like to die just now? No sane person would agree with that. In modern so-called science it got an extreme form known as a cryonics. What a belief in "omnipotent" science"!! >Heck, in your mind I'm sure it is and that is WHY you are religious. >Because you cannot deal with the truth: there is no afterlife >(well, at least there is no evidence for one) Just wondering how that has been proved. Lack of evidence doesn't prove anything. In medieval ages the people didn't know about nuclear reaction (although in Vedic times they did) but that can't prove its nonexistence. >Oh, Jahnu Jahnu. Do you not see the hypocrisy (funny its obvious to >all us ignorant atheists...)? You say that all of science is ignorance. >Scientific minds using scientific methods have created the >medium by which you choose to preach. So, you USE the fruits of >ignorance to provide truth to the ignorant. Why bother? You have >called modern science worthless. Why do you then find worth in >worthlessness. Your actions totally contradict your words. If science >did not lead to anything good then you would not choose to use the >fruits of science. Yet you do. Tell me, have you ever taken anti-biotics? >Have those medicines ever been tested on animals? Science acc to the Vedas is an ignorance when it doesn't aim beyond the material reality and animalistic propensities--eating, sleeping, mating, defending. The analogy of a vulture speaks for itself: A vulture may rise very high in the sky--seven or eight miles--and it is wonderful to see him fly in this way. He also has powerful eyes, for he can spot a carcass from a great distance. Yet what is the object of all these great qualifications? A dead body, a rotting carcass. His perfection is just to discover a dead piece of meat and eat it. That's all. Similarly, we may have a very high education, but what is our objective? Sense enjoyment, the enjoyment of this material body. We may rise very high with our spaceships, but what is the purpose? Sense gratification, that's all. This means that all the striving and all this high education are merely on the animal platform. Uselessnes or usefulness of something depends on how we use it. The gun itself is inherently neither good nor bad; it only becomes so called in hands of either a policeman or a criminal. Same with our body--although the Vedas describe it as imperfect and full of suffering it is also described as the best vessel to cross the ocean of material existence. So both is true. I wonder why the atheists still bother with those stale arguments. Yawn. >What a fool you are! There are height records of 100 years ago. >We don't even have to look at fossils. There are medical histories. >There are photographs. There are many many documentations of human >height 100 years ago. This would need a bit longer explanation and still I'm not sure that you being stuck in darwinistic evolution paradigm would get it. Just shortly: Time range of human existence in which medern science operates is very limited in comparison with Vedic view. So by exploring a history of few thousand years you can't say what were people all about millions of years before. There are documented cases about that which were carefully filtered out by "scientific" establishment. I can supply a few examples on a request. It's true that 500, 1000 or 2000 years ago people were smaller than now but they were basically the same until the half of this century. But you don't know about previous age, called Dvapara-yuga, which ended 5000 years ago--at that era people used to be about 15ft tall. Then they gradually became smaller. Recently they started to "grow" because of drastic changes of lifestyle and environment as well as food. Now you can enjoy genetic manipulated food which allows you to grow very much but at the same time suffer many unapalatable consequences of it. The more sophisticated the medicine becomes the more "sophisticated" diseases emerge (mad cow disease as a typical example). Therefore it is an endless battle. Thank you very much for this blessing. >Its clear now why you became a lunatic and a Krishna. You had >such a dim view of life and are unable to see the beauty of life >and the wonders of nature. I love nature. I love mystery. I love >scientific discovery. I love love. I live for them. I even like >gadgets, its true. Exaggeration is one way how to open someone's eyes. If you fail to see it that's your problem. One who has a real knowledge can see behind the beauty of life and wonders of nature. Although they are amazing (nature works under the control of amazing Krishna) their function is to cover our eyes by maya, illusion of temporary enjoyment, so that we become enamored and attached. Thus you can rot in this world life after life if you wish. Knowledgeable persons however understand that this material nature is just a reflection or shade of spiritual nature which is perfect and which is really worthy of admiration. Our program is to return there, back to Godhead. >Wow "cow dung for brains"? Does that sound like it would come from >someone who is at peace with the universe? Hey, that cows were >considered to be holy anyway...i guess you could do worse than >have holy-shit for brains ;) Unfortunately even the holy excrement seems to be insufficient to help you get the point. 8-) >Do I sense anger from one of the happiest people alive? >Thats weird, isn't it? This shows you have no idea of spiritual life. Even the most holy person can become enraged at the proper time, place and circumstances what to speak of me. Artificial pacifism is imagination of mundaners. >Wrong. (yes, your intuitions are wrong). I have not been a teenager for >many years. I have many goals in life. None of them include roting away >with no purpose. Many goals without being God (Krishna) conscious will keep only you in material world life after life. How can you avoid rotting away? There is no other than spiritual solution. >There you go again. Nothing comes from science but ignorance, oh and >a way for the Vedas to be preached more effectively. You realize that >you have just admitted that modern science has created items which >have "Good Use" Now that you have admitted this, I expect you to recant >all your assertions that there is nothing useful that comes out of >science. See comment above. >Outright Bullshit. You said that science is worthless. You said >that nothing comes of it but ignorance. You said that all >scientific experients (including my own) do nothing to help the >world and they do not play any role in decreasing ignroance. You >basically said that science was not worth the effort. You are >totally changing your tune and your words are recorded here. So >don't even bother trying to change your story without admitting >a mistake. It does not fly. Science in your hands will not help anyone--that's for sure. But does it mean that none has this ability? You should scientifically explain the difference between the living and the dead body. If you can' the real, Vedic science is beyond you because this is just the first step in it. >Yes I have. But where are they? Kindly provide them. >No I don't. Your arguments show something else. >Do you have any evidence for this? >Oh wait, you don't believe in collecting evidence to validate a hypothesis, right? >Nothing but ignorance comes from this scientific method, right? >Unless of course, you can preach the Vedas using these methods, right? >Oh wait, good things do come from science right? >But nothing but ignorance comes from science? >So good things = ignorance. Or are good things a subset of ignorance? Is ignorance >a subset of good things? Preaching the Vedas is being done on the internet which, >as a product of science is nothing but ignorance. So the Vedas are ignorance? Or >what? I guess I explained this point sufficiently. Who can help you to get it? Well, you have no idea about the Vedas. Never checked out anything, right? Simply talking. Waste of time. >Alot. It can give someone the will to make the most of their position >because they may not get another chance. Weak solace. It can't help anyone to deal with the cause of his situation. He can only try to be comforted by the idea that he could suffer even more. Some even out of ignorance of law of karma blame God for it. Really nothing for intelligent people. >It really does not matter. Just because life sucks for some people >does not mean that gods exist. Maybe it doesn't matter for you now but it matters for those suffering persons. And who knows, maybe you or some of your folks can be among them soon too. Advantage of those suffering people in comparison with you is that they at least realize they're suffering but you don't. >Its foolish to think so. It actually requires a strong blind faith to think this way. Why do you never give any proof for your assertions? Talking is cheap. >Really, I >have to say that your true colors are finally showing: > >JAHNU BELIEVES IN GODS BECAUSE HE IS AFRAID OF LIFE >WITHOUT THEM. I wonder how you will behave in your last hour. Then your cluess arguments won't help you. You have to bow before Krishna anyway--either voluntarily or be cut down by Him in the form of death. >Regardless of whether or not you are of this opinion (admittedly, some >atheists agree with you on this) it does not mean that this is not the >reality. > >Got it? If something sucks, it doesn't mean its not true. Reality of the prison. But you fail to see it. >You don't belive that man walked on the moon? You really are a lunatic. There are quite some people who don't believe it. All this show seems like a smart cheating of tax payers (including you). Every fun costs something... >Because it would be too expensive. Its cheaper to dispose of garbage here. >Its pretty pathetic when even your rhetorical questions are easily >answerable. And we have to suffer the consequences. The science is just speeding the destruction of all life on the earth. Who can deny it? What was actually the purpose of going there (provided they went)? How it benefits us all? See above the vulture analogy. That's my point. Think about it if you can. >Wait, I thought you said that the space program was a sham and that >we were fools for believing that it exists because we only saw it >on T.V.? It did exist just as a disguised way to get your bucks. >A program that does not exist could not waste very much money. Actually trying to get that which doesn't exist you spend thousands of bucks--don't you know that everyone's attempts to get the nonexistent material happiness are the source the biggest and practically only bussiness all over the world? >The plague...measles...mumps...yellow fever...to name a few. >Oh, but wait...I heard about these cures on T.V... >Medical science has uncovered alot of information on how to avoid heart >attacks. >Some forms or cancer are almost 100% curable. >Scientists recently found a combinations of medicines that completely wiped >out all traces of HIV in an infected person. >Many mental disturbances are curable. Obsessive compulsive behavior, some forms of >scitzophrenia and depression to name a few. Even if you cure a few people in the West, those diseases still kill more people than you can cure. So what is the use of a drop of water in a desert? Do you fail to see that a disease is actually an arrangement of nature to open your eyes and make you think why do you have to suffer at all? Instead you prefer to struggle curing an increasing number of more and more deadly diseases. That's all. >Apparently I know alot more about scientific achievments than you do. >By the way, how do you know AIDS even exists? Did you hear about it on >atheist controlled t.v? Or did you read about it in the atheist controlled >press? >Even if you have seen someone who was diagnosed with HIV, how do YOU know >that that is really what they suffer from. How do you know its not some >other disease. Like cancer or something else? The fact is that the traditional medicine like Ayurveda, Chinese etc. can help people who were written off by Western medicine doctors. But this is not the point. Anyway it seems to me that your arguments are getting more and more emotional and useless. How does the knowledge about scientific achievement help you avoid sickness completely? What is the point of atheist controlled media or names of certain diseases? Waste of time. >How do you know that more would not die if it were not for science? >I suggest that more would. You again missed the point--who caused these terrible conditions at the first place? This just shows that science is out of the control of situation--they opened Pandora's box but they can't get rid of the consequences. Is not that clear?? >In India human beings go starving while food is given to feed >fatally ill cows and chickens. Such inhumane practices >are not the result of atheistic thinking. You speak about something you have no idea of. This only makes you irrelevant. Starving people are to be found only in the slums of biggest cities which are product of--Western so-called advancement. Gandhi when asked what he thinks about Western civilization, replied: "That would be a good idea!" Ill cows and chickens are to be found on the same places, for the same reason. The mass slaughtering machinery of fast food industry penetrating into India is also a blessing of Western "civilization". >Go on swearing. I know many people who grew up there are have visited >and all tell me stories of starvation. What do you expect from those who left India allured by the vision of easy life in the West? Do you think they will appreciate their country? Media propaganda is another source of this false picture of India. >The scientific method is based on collecting evidence to support >or contradict a theory or hypothesis. Blind faith is not part of >the scientific method. You forgot to mention the information filter involved. This makes the whole show a farce. Blind faith is required from the people who are indoctrinated over and over again. If one rejects to conform he is labelled by different not very savory names. >There are some theists who believe in gods because they think that >without them life would suck. My hypothesis, based on considerable >evidence from your writings to this newsgroup, is that >You are one of these. I wonder which evidence against existence of God you mean. >Nothing noble about that. The Moonies do the same thing. They let >the thinking go bye and prey on the weak. Honestly, tell me how >many converts you have found here. There is no question of converting--presenting the facts by logic and evidence should refute atheistic fables fed to people. Converting in your understanding is not our job because we are not after a great following. How could we expect it in this degraded age anyway? >That depends. I'd rather know the truth and live unhappy, then >become a happy moron. Yet you resist to learn about the Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic texts. So where is your eagerness for knowledge then? Knowing the truth leads to happiness--that is time proven fact. There are only two groups of happy persons in this material world-- the transcendentalists and the morons (as you put it). The rest of them understand they are suffering. May Krishna gives you the ability to chose the right group.