========
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A Serous Question
From: Jahnu@wineasy.se (Jahnu dasa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:34:47 GMT

djshore@twd.net (Dion Janu Shore) wrote:

>Jahnu@wineasy.se (Jahnu dasa) wrote:


>>The property is awareness. Chemicals are not found to be aware of
>>anything.

>	They cannot be found to be aware of anything as far as we know, but
>how do you know they aren't, in their own way? 

Well, how do you know anything in that case? How do you know there
isn't a God then?

Are you seriously suggesting that the chair you are sitting on writing
messages to the usenet is aware that you are sitting on it... that
it's aware of anything? Is that what you think?

Let's say I were to come to your home, pinch your cheek, drag your
hair and kick you around, there is a good chance you'd be pretty upset
with me and probably even punch me in the nose. But if I were to kick
my chair around it wouldn't in any way show displeasure. You see there
is a difference between people and dead matter. People or any kind of
conscious entity show displeasure if you mistreat or disrespect them.

Dead matter, like a chair, does not show any kind of apprehension upon
being molested or mistreated. Now why do you think that is?
Don't you think there is a good chance that it is because dead matter
is unconscious and people are conscious? What do you think?

>only aware, but had a way of interacting with us, we'd never know
>either way.  If you got just the right chemical reactions together,
>perhaps awareness could be sparked, but you'd just never know it.  Or
>perhaps some quantum property of matter makes it inherently
>"conscious", but only biological entities such as ourselves have the
>ability to express the consciousness of the matter which composes us.
>It's speculation, true, but so is it speculation to say that matter
>isn't conscious.

You know this is what is called speculation. Of course you are free to
speculate your brains out but please cite some kind of justification
for it. Otherwise we are back to the believing contest.

>>I know you don't agree. That's obvious from your previous statements.
>>Do I have to accept the fact that you don't agree as some kind of
>>divine revelation, or are you ever going to back up what you say with
>>logic and reason? You know, you have to support your position with
>>some kind of argumentation, not just state what you believe or don't
>>believe. Who anyway gives a figue what you believe or don't believe?

>	He has to prove that he is matter, or that he is conscious?  I think
>if you think that's the case, then it is you making the assertion that
>he might *not* be made of matter, or that he might not be conscious,
>and therefore, you would have to prove it.

Do I have to prove that he is conscious? Isn't it pretty obvious ;)

>>This is the not high school now. 

>	Could've fooled me.  *OH*, wait, now I get it - you have a college
>account or something, right?

Nope. Quit college long time ago.

>>Do you think this is a believing contest? At least explain _why_ you
>>believe what you believe or don't believe.

>	Not everyone is willing to believe more than their senses tell them,
>and while I believe there is more to the world than what our senses
>tell us, I have no problem with that behavior.  And not everyone is
>willing to believe mommy and daddy's philosophies are the divine truth
>simply because they *are* mommy and daddy.  And not everyone is afraid
>to question their beliefs for fear of the consequences.  In other
>words, some people like to do their own thinking.

I guess I have to agree with you on that one. In fact I couldn't have
stated it better myself. So I take it you are not an atheist? Nobody
who ever thought for himself would remain an atheist. Of course he
also wouldn't remain a Christian, but that's another story.

>>Ok. That's it. I'm wasting my time talking to an insect here. What's
>>the use?

>	In other words, you can't prove your point in any way, shape or form,
>refuse to accept this fact, and have given up for fear that you will
>be proven *wrong* sooner or later.

Why should I be afraid? Everything is in Krishna's hands. And let me
tell you, nobody, not even big, big, professors in big, big
universities, what to speak of the sorry lot frequenting this group
has ever been able to defeat the philosophy of Krishna consciousness.
But you are welcome to try.

Regards

-Jahnu




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