========
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: VEDANTA
From: Jahnu@wineasy.se (Jahnu dasa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:38:29 GMT

star9m@cris.com (Quicksilver) wrote:

>I am not uncorfortable with any point you raise. 

Why don't you address them in any intelligible way then?

>Atheism is personal
>and it is ludicrous to attribute it with aspects of organized
>religion.

It is an organized religion, and it is brought to you by all the
media of the world.

> What comfort does this god thing offer to the handicapped,
>why is god inflicting misery on them and give others a much better
>lot? 

God does not inflict pain on anyone and happiness on others. I'd have
thought you'd have gotten that point by now. The happiness and
distress that you experience in your life time is solely due to your
own activities. 

Like if you insist on maintaining slaughter houses in which poor
animals are mercilessly and cruelly butchered in the millions every
day, don't be surprised when _you_ will experience the same kind of
suffering. Know for sure that the suffering which is inflicted on you
corresponds exactly to your activities in this and earlier lives.

The idea that God inflicts pain on the living entities is some lame
notion that the Church came up with. You really can't get over your
Christian concept of God, can you? That's what I mean when I say it is
so extremely unintelligent to think that all religion is the same.

>Atheism dictates_NOTHING_, that is the province of government and
>religion. 

Note how you never argue for your points. You simply just state
things. Another typical atheistic trait.

Atheism dictates that you are your body and that the the goal of life
is to enjoy the body. It dictates that there is no spiritual dimension
to life and that all religion was invented by man. 

It reduces your feeling of being a personality to some neurons running
laps in your brain. All baseless assumptions.

The only thing you know for certain in that belief system is that you
are going to rot and die.

>I am not going to debate philosophy with anyone.

Of course not. You don't have a philosophy to present. Just some
baseless dribble.

> Not because I am
>afraid of losing the argument, but for the reason that neither side
>ever credits the other side with making their point.

I'll credit you when you will make a point based on intelligent
analysis. So far you haven't even come close to that.

> If I was to read
>your mythology and disagree, you would disparage me or claim that I
>misunderstood what I read.

Of course I'd disparage you. Mostly because you never even took the
time to read anything worthwhile. And even if you did, how would you
know if it is mythology? Your own frigging president believes in God.
Are you saying that the head of state of the most powerful nation on
earth is dedicated to mythology?

> My argument with you is; your intrusion
>into this newsgroup with your sugar-coated subtle insults and your
>real agenda.

They are not sugar-coated and subtle. They are right on, man.
But that's not my real agenda. My real agenda is to present Krishna
consciousness. You won't let me do that though.

You see, in reality I like you and care about you. You - the person,
not some bag of chemicals. You say I want to controll what you eat.
Don't you think I could care less what you eat? I'm not out to
controll you or impose my beliefs on you. Even if I would it would be
beyond my power to do so. It's just that I don't like to see you
suffer, and people who eat meat - especially meat from factory
butchered animals - are in for a lot of suffering. Therefore I'm
telling you this. Besides, of course, it also pains me to see other
living creatures being treated so cruelly.

And beyond that I'd really like you to surrender to Krishna and get
out of this material world altogether, which is simply a temporary
place - everything is non-lasting - full of suffering.

>I never post in theist newsgroups.

Why would you do that? You have nothing worth while or sensible to
offer.

> If I were to post insults in such a
>newsgroup, I would expect the same treatment that you are recieving
>here. Unlike you, I would acknowledge that I deserved such treatment. 

But I _do_ acknowledge that I deserve such treatment. This is what I
get for trying to present Krishna consciousness to fools and rascals.

>You don't know me or anyone else on this NG, how could you know what
>anybody needs?

I know a lot of people on this news group. I have private exchanges
with quite a few. I have been here on and off for almost a year now.
Many people - well a few - have voiced their appreciation for my
trying to present the Vedic version here.

And I know exactly what everyone here needs. They need the same as
anyone else - pleasure. Everyone is trying to maximize their pleasure
and minimize their distress. The problem is that most people - due to
insuffcient knowledge - think that pleasure means _material pleasure_
-that pleasure which comes through the body and the mind. The problem
with such pleasure is that it is temporary and always followed by
suffering and therefore it will eventually leave you frustrated.

This is the problem that everyone in the material world has. How do I
know this? First of all because it is in the Vedas, secondly because
it can be readily observed simply by taking a look at the world.

So what everybody needs is spiritual pleasure. Spiritual pleasure does
not end and is not dependent on what kind of body you have or any
material circumstance for that matter.

> I am sick and tired of pious jerks like you telling me
>what I need.

I'm really not that pious. And I'm just telling you that you need
lasting happiness, not temporary happiness. What's wrong with that?
Actually I'm not telling you this, God is telling you this. Krishna
says it clearly in Bhagavad Gita. Because the soul is eternal it can
never be satisfied by temporary pleasure.

> For eighteen years I listened to the catholic priests
>telling me how worthless I am, and that I am guilty of sins I did not
>commit. 

Funny, you grew up as a Catholic and became an atheist. I grew up as
an atheist and became religious. Anyway, I can definitely understand
why you think that religion stinks if you grew up with Christianity.
I also think it is so lame to claim that you have to suffer for the
sins of Adam and Eve. In that case why don't everyone suffer the same,
you might ask your priest. See if he can answer that one.

But this is all explained very nicely and logically by karma and
reincarnation.

Get over it, man - I don't know your name, and I refuse to call you
quicksilver - all religion is not the same.

>Then I went to bootcamp where I was told again how worthless I
>was, which did not change my whole time in the USN. Now I've got the
>Govt. embezzling money from my paycheck to fund programs that tell me
>how worthless I am. I refuse to take that bullshit from the likes
>of_YOU_!

Ok. I can definitely sympathize with you. So why not go back to the
spiritual world and play with Krishna and end this material existence
once and for all? Atheism also tells you how useless you are. Atheism
tells you that you are just a bag of stool and urine. That's pretty
useless. For God's sake why are you so attached to this idea?

>>I just claim that the Vedas contain superior knowledge. What's wrong
>>with that? I can back up my claims with logic and reason.You claim
>>that science provides us with superior knowledge, but you are not even
>>able to back back your numb, feeble claims up with anything but saying
>>that it just is so, because the scientists have proven it. Where is
>>the proof I ask you? Where is the proof that life comes from
>>chemicals

>>That's what I would call elitist superior arrogance mixed with a good
>>portion of stupidity. What do you have to back up your claims with?
>>Since the dawn of Scientism, the world is rapidly going more and more
>>to hell. And you claim we are making progress. Where is the progress?
>>Tell me that.

>see> Krishna Declares War on Atheism

I saw it. You offer nothing. Just baseless assumptions, hearsay,  and
prejudism. No explanations. No logic. No reason. No common sense.
No analysis. No nothing. Just your opinions.

>>That means you must be older than me. You know, I didn't think that
>>anyone over 40 would call himself 'quicksilver' unless he is in a
>>severe identity crisis. This sounds like a name a teenager would come
>>up with. Sorry if I misjudged you.

>Unlike you, I am not on a mission from some god.

What's wrong with being on a mission from God?

> After seeing your
>"wisdom", and other pushy theists posts, it is more like self-defense.

You saw nothing beyond the preconceived notions of that mind of yours.
I'm not defending myself here. I'm defending theism. Where would I do
that if not in alt.atheism? 

And what would you have without  theism? Atheism is simply a negation
of theism. Without theism you are nothing. People here would be bored
to cinders if there weren't some theists they could gang up on and
ridicule.

Look at the headers of this group. It's all about religion. People
think it's fun to discuss religion.Do you seriously think anybody
finds it interesting to discuss whether or not you should have prayers
in school? It's boring, man. If you want to be bored go to a moderated
group. If you don't want to be bothered by missionaries go to
soc.atheism or something.

>I am also here to have fun, 

So aren't we having fun? Personally I'm having a lot of fun.
I just _love_ to smash this atheistic nonsense.

Otherwise what fun can you have here?

You know what I think? Until now you had an easy time with the
Christians. They also don't have any philosophy or anything to base
their beliefs on. Least of all logic and reason. In this regard they
are like the atheists. So you had an easy time with them brushing them
off like annoying flies. But now Krishna is here. And him you cannot
just brush off like that. Therefore you are pissed off.

You know, Krishna consciousness does not at all fit into your
programming. It is like nothing you ever heard before. It is
completely beyond the parameters of your closed mind.
It's like on of these boxes you give to kids. 

You know, these boxes with differently shaped wholes in them. There's
a square whole, a round whole, a triangular whole etc. and pegs to
match. So the idea is that the child has to match the peg with the
whole. Did you ever see a child struggle to put the round peg in the
square whole? It's so funny to watch. You are like that.

Now I don't really say this to put you down or anything like that.
As I said, I like you and care for you. If I didn't like you I'd just
leave you alone and let you go to hell. In fact you are already in
hell. This world is very rapidly going to hell, and we are all going
down with it. Wouldn't I be a selfish rascal if I didn't try to do
anything about it?

>and I find it amusing to use different
>aliases for different purposes. The reasons behind my choice of
>aliases is personal and certainly none of your business.

Why is it not my business?

>>snip for brevity

>>So where did you get this information? Did you actually go to the
>>temple and speak to the people there? Did you try and figure out why
>>they do what they do? Did you read any of the books that the devotees
>>are so eager to sell on the street? Did you ever try and wonder why a
>>person will give up all kinds of personal comfort and the pursuit of
>>sense gratification to go out the whole day on the streets amongst
>>people in a mostly hostile inviroment to present Krishna's message?

>What I have seen of krishna turns my stomach. 

Because you are preconceived. You have a very closed mind.

>You are buffoons dancing
>around with that zombie-like, air-head, rapturous stare into oblivion.
>You produce nothing and are parasite beggars. I do my job, pay my
>bills and taxes(reluctantly), and would be ashamed to beg for
>anything.

We are doing what everbody wants to do. We are dancing and singing in
the streets. That's what people are doing when they get drunk, isn't
it? They dance and sing. But now a days people have to get stoned to
let loose.

We dance and sing every day because we are ecstatic to be engaged in
the service of Krishna chanting his names. Everybody likes to sing and
dance. Normally people are just too inhibited to do so and besides
that they have nothing to be ecstatic about.

>>Did you ever try and ponder anything in that sorry excuse for a brain
>>you have?

>Do you have any rational thoughts in yours, or does your guru edit
>them out when he programs your micro-brain.

Gee. What wit. Now I'm at a loss. I mean, you really got me there.

>>What do they deliver? Polution which makes it hell for countless of
>>other inhabitants of this planet? Is that what you mean? Science can't
>>even deliver pure water out of the tap anymore. Where I live people
>>get cancer from tap water and practically every day there are reports
>>of oil spillings from super tankers that kill off thousands of birds.

>see> Krishna Declares War on Atheism

I did. There you also don't offer any explanation of anything. Just a
lot of ranting and raving.

>>Certainly many living entities must suffer in order that you may eat a
>>burger.

>see> Krishna Declares War on Atheism

I did. Nothing to be had.

>>Go away? Forget it. This is war, man. If you don't like it crawl back
>>into the snake hole you emerged from You think you have a monopoly on
>>insulting people you sorry clown? If you won't discuss philosophy at
>>least I can insult you.

>This is the last post where I will answer so many points, it is just
>too long.

What points did you answer? All you said is; "it is not true."

> Pick one or two items and see the new thread discussing the
>krishna agenda and your declaration of war.

Ok.

-Jahnu





>Jack L. Ope




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