From: Hare Krsna dasi Receiver: Cow Add Receiver: Varnasrama Subject: Goats -------------------------- Since the topic of goats has been brought up, I think it is worthwhile to open up this subject for discussion. If we city slickers think of having a farm, the idea of goats may naturally occur to us. We've all seen pictures of goats in children's animal books. We've seen pictures of goats in third world countries. And, in the last couple of decades, goats have come to be a symbol strongly associated with the back-to-the- land movement. "Who needs a great big cow and a lot of hassle taking care of her, why not just keep a few goats?" runs the logic. However, I personally think that logic might be shortsighted. To bring goats into the picture may be inviting some serious problems for a farm's future. Almost universally, it is cows -- not goats -- which are a symbol of wealth. Naturally, we know that Srila Prabhupada said that in Vedic society, wealth was not based on an artificial bank balance (which are susceptible to erosion by fluctuating exchange rates, the implicit risks of fractional reserve banking, savings and loan fiascos and the like). Rather wealth was based on one's stock of cows and grains. Cows were not only a form of wealth, they actually produced the other form of wealth, since bulls were used to produce grains. Viewing cattle as wealth was not limited to Vedic India, but was common in most cultures around the world. Cows were wealth in Greece and Rome and Northern Africa. Draft oxen in particular were valuable in China and the rest of the Far East. Cows were also a symbol of the natural wealth of European countries like Switzerland, Sweden, France and the Netherlands. In places where there were no cows, there was a high incidence of nomadic hunters, especially in temperate climates like most of North America. Not only did the people have no milk, they had no traction animal to produce large quantities of grain. Therefore, they had to depend heavily on eating meat. Economic historians say that rotation and improved forage crops, especially legumes, were a significant factor in allowing cows to improve the productivity of the land in Europe, beginning in the 17th and eighteenth century: There is plenty of evidence pointing to an expanding 'national flock' [in England]. This represented the lifting of a constraint on productivity in an agriculture dependent on organic fertilizer. More livestock make more manure; this meant heavier yields of grain, or, more to the point, enabled cultivation to be extended on to relatively infertile soil on the chalk, limestone and sandlands which had previously been sheepdown. -- E.L. Jones, Agriculture and the Industrial Revolution, p. 129 The livestock who produced all this significantly enriching manure were mostly cows and bulls -- not goats. While a well-managed herd of cows can increase the fertility of the soil, the situation with goats is practically the opposite. Consider the following example: The Phoenicians were probably a nomadic tribes originally, and most individuals were not inclined to the hard labor of terrace agriculture. Goat herds were favored by many as a source of livelihood. As the two thousand square miles of forest were slowly cut and herbaceous plans appeared, the goats took over. Stories told about the indestructible digestive systems of goats are not without foundation -- a goat can eat almost any type of vegetation, including young trees; he can go almost anywhere to get food, even to the most inaccessible crag; and he can even climb certain types of trees and eat the leaves or fruits. It seems certain that the desolation which is Lebanon today can in part be traced to the goats. Where the forest might have recovered to protect the soil, prevent floods, and provide a continuing economic asset, the goats prevented such recovery. Seedling tries, starting from the windblown seed, were eaten and killed as fast as they appeared. Deforestation and the scavenger goats brought on most of the erosion which turned Lebanon into a well-rained-on desert. -- Vernon Carter and Tom Dale, Topsoil and Civilization, pp. 71-72 Obviously, cows do not always improve the environment. Particularly when raised on a commercial scale, and especially when they are raised for meat production, they can do a lot of damage. But, in well-managed, small herd, they can help improve the fertility of the soil tremendously. Goats will never improve prosperity. They produce little milk and little manure to fertilize the soil. They cannot pull a plow and cultivate crops. Rather than raise plants, they destroy them. Because they have no upper teeth, cows and oxen can only chomp plants down to within an inch of the roots. Goats can rip up the whole plant. They are environmentally destructive. Thus, they are generally a symbol of poverty. I think we should think very carefully before introducing them into any ISKCON rural community -- lest they and their descendents turn it into a desert. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi From: Hare Krsna dasi There are several very important resources which I forgot to recommend to Aga prabhu in response to his recent inquiry. If I were a millionaire, every ISKCON rural community would have the following: Appropriate Technology Sourcebook: A Guide to Practical Books for Village and Small Community Technology by Ken Darrow and Mike Saxenian 1993 revised edition "A goldmine of information on appropriate technology" -- Ceylon Daily News "Compiles the world's best village machines" -- Christian Science Monitor send orders to Appropriate Technology Project P.O. Box 4543 Stanford CA 94305 USA phone: 415-725-7977 outside California call 1-800-648-8043 fax 415-725-1805 ISBN 0-917704-17-7 (paperback) $23.95 ISBN 0-917704-18-5 (hardbound, recommended for community libraries) $29.95 domestic shipping $3.50 international shipping $5.00 "The 1993 Appropriate Technology Sourcebook reviews 1,120 of the most useful appropriate technology books from around the world. Complete price and ordering information is provided for each book reviewed. For the first time it is easy to identify and order the bookds you need for your special projects and interests. "For almost two decades, the Sourcebook has been the standard reference for people working in village technology and community development." Contains excellent resources on agriculture and alternative power sources. The next item is the so-called "Library in a Shoebox" -- a complete library at a fraction of the cost: Appropriate Technology Microfiche Library from AT Project, Volunteers in Asia P.O. Box 4543 Stanford CA 94309 USA (same address as above) price $895.00 Includes full text of 1000 of the entries listed in the Appropriate Technology Sourcebook, including more than 100 out-of-print but sought after materials. AT Project also sells microfiche readers ranging $250-$625 ------------- The next great resource is Animal traction: an annotated bibliographic database by Paul Starkey, Sirak Teklu and Michael Goe published by International Livestock Centre for Africa P.O. Box 5689, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia also available from Agribookstore, Winrock International 1611 North Kent St. Arlington VA 22209 USA phone 703-525-9455 fax 703-525-1744 published in 1991, ISBN 92-9053-013-7 (paperback) ISBN 92-9053-154-1 (microfiche) ISBN 92-9053-106-1 (computer diskette) "The most comprehensive bibliography on animal traction yet produced. It contains details of 1,341 different documents, including published books, scientific papers, training manuals and unpublished technical reports. "Each entry is annotated, with a brief description of the publication and its contents. Full details are provided of each document including publishing organisation, the number of pages and illustrations, and the languages of any abstracts. The information given will allow the original document to be traced and ILCA reference numbers are provided to facilitate requests for microfiche copies. "Documents are arranged in several broad categories... and comprehensively indexed..." --------------------- I highly recommend all these source materials if a community can afford to obtain them. The AT Sourcebook is quite reasonably priced to begin with. ******************** Just a note to the members of COW and VARNASRAMA conferences. I am sending in a separate file via Devaprastha prabhu a text from U.N. official JuanCarlos Chirgwin who is organizing U.N. FAO (Food and Agricultural Organization) conferences on ox power. Devotees will be interested to hear his statements against the use of tractors in developing countries. Please note the preaching opportunities this implies for ISKCON's ox-powered preachers of Krsna consciousness -- if we can only get our act together. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi From: Hare Krsna dasi Receiver: Cow Add receiver: Varnasrama Subject: Forget this Centralizing and Bureaucracy --------------------------- part 1/2 I must admit that I find endorsement of a command economy to be appalling and shocking. I don't believe that Prabhupada's instructions support such an institution. Consider the following from the Prabhupada folio, for example, where Srila Prabhupada condemns communistic economic organization as impractical because it crushes the spirit of independence of the vaisya. (Anyone who has lived in one of ISKCON's communal projects will know exactly what Prabhupada is arguing against): Srila Prabhupada's Transcripts - Other PHILOSO.001 Srila Prabhupada: Why I shall develop an ideological perfection by conflict, by struggle, by talking in the parliament, and talking to the leaders, and... Make this simple method that whatever you produce, you give me one-fourth. That's all. S: He [Mao?] believes that whatever is produced, all should be given. Everything. P: Why all should be given? That means he's killed my independence. S: There should be no proprietorship. There should be no private property. P: No. Proprietor should be allotted proprietor, that I belong... You give me... The king or the government gives me this land. So that is my proprietorship. Just like I have taken this house. So it is higher proprietorship. I do not allow anybody to come here. That is trespassing. S: Even the farms in China are collective. The people work together, cooperate to produce such and such products. They give the whole product to the state. In return, they receive their lodging, their cloths. P: But that will never give them satisfaction. That is artificial. S: So they need constant ideological brainwashing to maintain this state of activity. P: That is foolishness. If I know that "This land belongs to me, government has allotted me," so I can develop in my own way. I have got freedom. Wholesale dependence, what is the value of this? (c) 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust ******************* For those who are not familiar with the term, "command economy" means the same thing as a planned economy, which is typical of communism, for example. Two factors make this arrangement undesirable: 1) the tendency for abuse of the individual's freedom; 2) the bureaucratic impossibility of administering such a plan in the long run. (E.g., the difficulty of maintaining a planned economy was an important cause contributing to the collapse of the Soviet Union.) Planning must by necessity involve some degree of coercion; if it does not, then the plan may amount to little more than wishful thinking. In the extreme case of a command economy (the U.S.S.R. under Stalin, Nazi Germany), the abridgement of personal freedom is both painful and obvious. --William Baumel & Alan Blinder, Economics: Principles and Policies, 5th Edition, p. 861 Now, we may say that our leaders are pure and competent and that such abuse of personal freedom will not be possible under our plan. But still I think we have to consider Srila Prabhupada's objection: The independence of the vaisya must not be crushed. The first exhibition of the power of a ksatriya is not that he *coerces* citizens to do the right thing -- but that he *inspires* them to do the right thing -- by 1)his own Krsna conscious example, 2)by his fair dealings, and 3)by facilitating the brahmanas to properly train the citizens in Krsna conscious skills and values. Coercion should be something to fall back on only in the few cases where inspiration fails to convince a well-trained citizenry. (to be continued...) your servant, Hare Krsna dasi I am sure Hare Krsna dasi never realized what a Pandora's box she was opening up when she originally summarized that article by two scholars arguing against turning land into crops meant for human consumption from use for fattening animals. Prabhupadacarya Prabhu originally found my remarks naive since he says I postulated leaving a market economy. I really don't know how he concluded that since my comments were about an UNENLIGHTENED market economy and were not an attempt to shoot down the free market system. It would be rather hypocritical of me to do so because I work in a business which makes use of the free market system daily. Nonetheless, there are certainly many problems with capitalism. Hare Krsna dasi alluded to a report by a devotee, yet to be finished, which purports to discuss economic activity based on satisfying true needs rather than artificial wants. I think here is the seed to our solution. We understand that Lord Krishna mercifully supplies necessary support for all the living entities. Unfortunately, since many are taking more than their natural allotment, this leaves someone else deprived. Of course, they are suffering the results from past activities but the Vaisnavas never want to see anyone suffer either materially or spiritually. So at the heart of this accumulating propensity is an unnatural desire to accumulate wealth at the expense of others. It is unnatural because all things belong to Krishna and the natural thing to do is to offer everything back to Him as our service and privilege. The hoarding mentality is a product of the lower modes. I am not an economist but in economics this propensity to accumulate wealth at the expense of others is referred to as accumulating surplus. In the material world, everyone works to produce a surplus; you can think of it as profit but profit usually denotes money while surplus can have broader implications. That is why we see the developed countries continually trying to control the marketing and transport of goods because this is where the greatest profit lies. Again, I know this because I am in the trading business. There are many economists but the three main "gurus" are Adam Smith, the founder of laissez-faire capitalism where the market decides all; Karl Marx the mastermind behind communism who, while observing the acute social problems of the Industrial Revolution, devised an economic theory where the country's assets are in control of the state; and finally, there is John Maynard Keynes who hypothesized a free market system where government played a role in moderating the market place. However, all of them are sparked by and controlled by the lower modes of material nature. Economics is limited because they make judgments by placing values, generally dollar values because it is the easiest instrument to measure what they call something's utility. However, at least my economics prof. at university said, they cannot fix a value to a human life or to the many extremely intangible things that life presents. The value of a good marriage, strong spiritual standing, etc. etc. cannot have a price fixed on them. So here is where economics comes up short and where it is best illustrated that it should not provide the final rationale in social design. I am not saying that it has no place, it does. Definitely. But its importance must be carefully considered. The difficulty in looking at life through the lens of one specific discipline is that life is a mixture of many factors affecting each other simultaneously and that many of these factors are beyond the understanding of one's specific training. As an example, several years ago I attended a conference on sustainable agriculture which saw many of the North American leaders in the field congregate together and allowed a bunch of nobodies like myself to watch. There I met a Professor, (an agricultural economist, by the way) from a local university, who during our discussion stated that agriculture could be economically sustainable while not necessarily environmentally sustainable. That really upset me and I asked him how any business could survive if they neglected maintaining their machines, buildings, etc. What happens with these Kali Yuga munis is they sit around and postulate in environments completely removed from the real world utilizing a very narrow focus and we can see what they come up with. It is mental speculation to the extreme and at the same time very irresponsible. By the way, he had now answer to my question. But economics can be utilized, if done wisely, in Krishna's service. The discussion that has been carried on during the last two days seems to show two perspectives. Prabhupadacarya Prabhu expresses the need for a mastermind group focussed on leading society. Other devotees feel that let us develop our rural communities and show the way like that. Frankly, I am of the second group but I really don't have a choice because my training is not as an economist. But there can be important lessons learned from economics but as with everything else in life, it cannot be exaggerated and I think Prabhupadacarya's strong emphasis has only ended up in polarizing people because they are perceiving it as too extreme. Likely due to the confrontational nature of the discussion, Prabhupadacarya has not been able to explain his ideas fully and to his satisfaction. Srila Prabhupada encouraged the temples and devotees as individuals to follow the path of "jack of all trades and master of none." I think that there is an important message there. Certainly there will be some specialization in our movement amongst individuals but there can also be danger in becoming too focussed. However, we all certainly have our personal interests and not to encourage that borders on impersonalism. And because one's interest doesn't intersect with anothers doesn't cancel out the other's realizations. There is much to be learned if we continue to talk to each other and try to listen to everyone's points. I would like to end by apologizing to Prabhupadacarya Prabhu for my emphasizing his Flat Earth remarks in my last submission. It was unclear to me that he was likening the acceptance of a flat planet to being similar to the acceptance of the idea of relinquishing the market economy in modern society. My picking up on this topic placed an implicit criticism towards him that he wasn't accepting the Bhagavatam's view on the shape of this planet. After hearing his clarification I think I owe him an apology. I guess we're even Prabhupadacarya Prabhu. I misunderstood your Flat Earth comment and you misconstrued my remark on an unenlightened market economy. But let's face it. I'm more right than you are. (oops!) Respectfully, Vyapaka dasa (Note: I am not necessarily replying to all you points in order. Some of this is just rambling. Please bear with me :) Of course, our economic policies need not protect and defend an artificial standard of living. We need to redefine the standards of how a successful economy is measured. Currently it is measured in terms of a nation's GNP (Gross National Product). The higher the GNP, the better. This means that success for a country is defined as the ability to produce more and more goods and services. The bigger the better. This overlooks the fact that 90% of all consumer goods produced are nonessential products (frisbees, slinkies, bow ties, Hyundais, Neer beer, and TVs). This also does not take into consideration the amount of garbage produced by all this junk, nor the effect it has on the quality of human life. If literacy going up? No. Are abortions, rapes, crime, and murders declining? No. So if that is their success then that much success they have. But that is not success according to Krishna's economics. Success means how much the people are becoming Krishna conscious. Economic policy in a vedic economy engages and controls land, labor and capital in a manner that is favorable to the people's Krishna consciousness. It brings people to full surrender at Krishna's lotus feet. That is the standard of success. A vedic government 1) accepts whatever is favorable for the development of the citizens' KC . 2) rejects things unfavorable. 3) It aims to see that people have no interest other than Krishna's service. 4)acknowledges and represents Krishna as the maintainer of the people 5)acknowledges and represents Krishna as the protector of the people 6)encourages humility by its example. As an example of control exerted over a kingdom, one devotee king would not even allow the animals in his kingdom to take grains on Ekadasi, what to speak of people! Now that is control over resources! And it is glorified, not condemned, like it would be in the West. So you agree that economic policy needs to be changed. Would you rather have a devotee have a say in that change or a karmi? Just curious. You disagreed that vanrasrama is an economic plan. You say that economics is too narrow to encompass varnasrama. Then you say that VA is meant to organize society(Command economy) and maintain body and soul(sounds aweful economic there) so we can develop our spiritual natures (the measure of success for any economy!). I guess I am always thinking of spiritual economics, which is varnasrama, so I should alert readers when I switch from a discussion of spiritual to material economics. Canakya pandit says "wealth maintains religion". Certainly economics has everyting to do with anything taking place in this material world. Fortunately, we know who owns and controls it all. You were shocked at my presentation of varnasrama as being fuedalistic, etc. and of my not mentioning the brahminical element in guiding government policy, etc.. Well the brahmins are there guiding the kings. I said it. Now, as far as my statements coming off sounding fuedalistic, they are. I didn't say there was anything wrong with kings, etc. Did I accuse you of that? Prohibition? My God! Are we going to cite that as an example? That is the quote people who drink, smoke and snort use to squelch any ideas of restricting their addictions. It clearly cannot be checked, but it does need to be properly regulated; like meat eating, gambling and sex. Letting your children (and citizens are one's children for a king) get AIDS to "teach them a lesson" is a far cry from good government, human decency, or good economic policy. People have been getting drunk for thousands of years. What have they learned? Did they stop? You say that we should not put too much emphasis on government policy citing examples of cowardly and inept governments like Canada and the USA, saying "it doesn't work". Well, I can cite an arm's length of governments that were successful in restricting sense gratification. See Srimad Bhagavatam and Mahabharat. Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada openly advises government leaders to adopt such strict policies regulating sense gratification in the pages of Srimad Bhagavatam. Can't agree with you on this one. I was not talking of our movement taking on India. I am speaking of getting the Indians who are GOING TO TAKE ON INDIA eventually, to take it on in a Krishna conscious way. ISKCON devotees are not meant for that. But let's engage the future leaders and show them how to become Krishna conscious. That much I think we both will agree is possible. Let them manage. Let us chant Hare Krishna, dance and take prasada :-) You say to date our leaders and brahmanas have been inadequate, etc. So. My mother was born naked. Does that mean that the future leaders we preach to are going to be as bad as today's? Time will tell. There are people that are going to come to power. Why not try to help see that they are Krishna conscious? Economists and their ideas control your life to a significant degree. They determine how much tax you will pay for each gallon of gas, how much the interest rate on your mortgage will be, how much inflation will raise the price of food you purchase, etc. I believe we would like to have favorable devotees in those positions making those kinds of decisions in Krishna's favor. Don't you? If we cAn take in a bum off the street and make him a devotee, we can certainly make devotees out of the graduating classes of economists at Harvard, Georgetown, George Washington, UCLA, Columbia, etc. some of whom are going to go on to become teachers and leaders in their field and even members of the president's Council of Economic Advisors and cabinet. Someone may question "why?", but I ask "why not?" All it takes is the right idea (Krishna's) coming out of the right mouth (a devotee's) at the right time (when he is in position) to ignite a revolution. The more economists we can convince the better. They will influence the students, the textbooks, the basic principles of economics (many which are bhogus), the ideas, the leaders, and eventually the entire population of the world. In a materialistic society economics (of money and women) is the very fabric of life. If we can convince them of Krishna consciousness in terms of our economic policies, we win. There senses will come under the control of a KC government which is going to help them pave the way to chanting Hare Krishna. This is what Srila Prabhupada emphasizes varnasrama is meant to do. Dear Maharajas and Prabhus! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada It has become a great concern for me when I over the last 2 years has seen the increase of demigod worship, Satya-Narayana puja and other types of karma-khanda, palmistry and Garbha-dance, and unbonafide samskaras. Sometimes they are being conducted in front of Sri Sri Radha- Krishna, with the curtains open. It is obvious to me that this is not prober, however all kind of arguments are given why this is OK. It appears that this has been introduced by one sannyasi all over U.S.A. as a quick way to make money, and others has caught on to it. It has never been done by previous acaryas, or Srila Prabhupada nor does scriptures allow this. ISKCON's goal is to raise people to pure devotional service, this was Srila Prabhupada's desire-so why flatter indians to make a few dollars? Srila Prabhupada was once asked if devotees could worship Ganesh, and Srila Prabhupada said if they would bring unlimited laxmi to Krishna like $100000 a day (or someone said per month). During Srila Prabhupada's time this was never done. He showed how to give respect but not worship. Sometimes this is done at someone's house or in a cultural hall even at the temple,but why should devotees in ISKCON be the priest? One sannyasi said that we should not be narrow minded,but this is what Lord Krishna calls it in the Bhagavad-Gita, Alpha-medhasa- BG 7.20&23. Besides this there are 10 offenses in the matter of chanting Hare Krishna. The second offence is to consider the name of the demigods equal to and independent of the name of Krishna.In this regard there is also Harinama Cintamani to consult in this regard. It appears to be what Srila Prabhupada called "cracking nuts with Salagamsilas" or worse....? Krishna clearly explains His position in Bhagavad-Gita and His position in relationship with all Demigods like last verse of 7th chapter.See also verses in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.33 and SB 12.13.1. Kaitava-dharma in SB 1.1.2. also refers to demigod worship. Padma Purana states: Yas tu Narayanam devam, brahma rudradi daivataih, samatvenaiva vikseta, sa pasandi bhaved dhruvam. "A person who considers demigods like Brahma and Siva to be on an equal level with Narayana is to be considered an offender and an atheist". Even Lord Jesus Christ said one should not worship many gods. There is only one supreme and that is Krishna, Brahma-Samhita verse 1, and CC states Ekale isvara Krishna etc., Gita 10.8, Eko Narayana asit, Yato va imani bhutani jayante, SB 2.9.33. Also verses 18.55, and 18.66 of the Gita is important in this regard. Skanda Purana says: Vasudevam parityajya yo'nya devam upasate, svamataram svapacim vandate hi sah "A person who worships the demigods and give up Lord Vasudeva is like a man who gives up the protection of his mother for the shelter of a witch" Krishna in the Gita also warns about the flowery words of the Vedas. Also Krishna warns about becoming spaced out by this (Gita 2.42-44). Generally demons are attracted to worship Siva and Brahma to get benedictions for sense gratification, as is seen in all Puranas and in Srimad Bhagavatam.There are also instances where the demigods being kind to those worshippers in goodness advised them to take shelter of Krishna, Visnu etc, for example in Brhad- Bhagavatamrita. Kali told several of her so-called devotees to surrender to Narottama das Thakura as they were committing offenses to him. Also Kali saved Jada Bharat from dacoits who wanted to sacrifice him. In Kena Upanisad, Visnu humbles the demigods,just to show less intelligent persons to worship Him and specially to cut the demigods pride.This was also done by Krishna Himself in Vrindavana to Indra, later in Dvaraka.But some persons are still bewildered about this and at the end of 10th Canto of SB the story of Brigu Muni is there who tested who is the supreme, then there can be no doubts left! We have to strictly follow the teachings and example of Srila Prabhupada (and rid ISKCON. of this before 1996). I humbly suggest with straw between the teeth that all demigod worship, Garbha-dance and Satya Narayana puja be stopped where ever it is going on, and I am convinced Srila Prabhupada will be most pleased with this. Unfortunately I have not gotten all information about Satya Narayana puja, I have definitely heard that it is a mixture of mayavadi, karma-khanda and so on. Narayana is always satya, this implies that we are all asatya-Narayana? This is the idea of the mayavadis, sometimes they talk about Daridra-Narayana, Srila Prabhupada found this so funny. Ahankaropsana that you think by worshipping Narayana you become Him, this is totally offensive. Satya-Narayana puja is not a bonafide Gauidya Vaisnava Yajna (today someone said I would be burnt from its mantras and worse) -but popular among hindus sometimes- but if we preach to them about chanting Hare Krishna and bonafide yajnas, they will in 99% accept if presented properly. Please do not consider me an offender to the demigods, as some persons called me in this matter. In Kali yuga some watch T.V. and some worship demigods, what can be done? Therefore mostly less intelligent persons worship the demigods for material gain. They do demigod worship also sometimes simply to maintain their families. SB 2.1.4,2.3.19-20 SB 3.23.56. Also Padma Purana warns: Arcye visnau sila dhir etc. We must never forget: vaisnavnam yatha Sambhu, we must not offend the demigods, the story is there how some sages were cursed for doing this (or the other way) like the sons of sages who corrected Brahma. Brahma-Samhita explains about various demigods position. Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings: (Kalyana-Kalpataru) 1) My dear mind, you are certainly most vile and Wicked. Your Lord is Sri Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So then why are you abandoning Him to worship the various demigods,following the path of lust? 2) The Supreme Lord is one absolute truth above and beyond the brahman effulgence.Therefore honor Him only with resolute determination, and completely dedicate the whole of your life unto Him. As far as all the innumerable demigods are concerned, their power and authority compared to His is only partial, for they are each the absolute controller of only one specific type of work within this material worlds administrative structure. 3) Maintain polite respect for these demigods, worship only Lord Hari for He is the supreme controller of all these other small controllers. Incessantly pass your time,my dear mind, by arduously endeavoring for intense single minded devotional service unto Him. Whose total potency of maya is simply and insignificant shadow reflection. 4-5) By pouring water on the root of the tree, all the branches and leaves become strong and healthy.It is useless to try to pour water on the top part of the tree only.Similarly all the demigods are the dear friend of one who has actual devotion to Hari.Indeed they show great honor and respect to the devotee of the Lord. Now Bhaktivinoda is telling you, dear mind, just worship always, just worship ceaselessly, just worship eternally the divine lotus feet of Radha and Krishna. Our business is to elevate people not water down K.C. and become dancing clowns for the public. Please consider this and give me some feedback. I am convinced that most persons loyal to Srila Prabhupada's standards will agree. Your servant, Payonidhi Dasa Prabhu the following is the festival Newsletter. It has already been sent out from Calcutta by Snail Mail. Could you please post it on COM so that as many people as possible get it? Can it be sent on to LINK as well. Please advise. Mayapur - Vrindavan Festival Committee The 23rd Annual (1995) Mayapur - Vrindavan Festival Newsletter November 1994 Dear Maharajas and prabhus, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. The annual pilgrimage is quickly drawing near. Arrangements are under way in preparation for the arrival of the devotees to Sri Dhama Mayapur and Sri Dhama Vrindavan. ***Accommodation*** Accommodation will be tight as usual especially in Mayapur, and so we are encouraging devotees to book in advance. Get back into the habit of booking this year. The trend in recent years has been for devotees to simply turn up in the dhama and expect all facilities to be laid on. Well, we do our best, but it makes it difficult. *** Note for Hare Krishna World Festival 1996*** Please note that the Hare Krishna World festival attendance will be by advance booking only. In Srila Prabhupada's Centennial year we are expecting an unprecedented influx of devotees for the festival programs. The accommodation facilities will not have increased very much. Therefore the available rooms will be given out on a first come first served basis. When these rooms are full the devotees will be accommodated in a Kumbha mela type temporary camp. Only if booked in advance. Look out for more information on the Hare Krishna World Festival that is coming up soon. ***Fees*** Over the past several years we have been able to consistently reduce the festival fees. Unfortunately this year there will be a slight increase mainly due to inflation. Another cause is that some devotees still come to the festival expecting that they do not have to pay any fees. They skip around and enjoy the arrangements at the expense of all the other devotees. The names of the unregistered devotees during the 1994 festival were noted and we will be watching out for them this year. If they continue to flout the norms we will have to ask them to leave. We request all devotees to pay the Festival registration fees that cover the fixed costs of staging the festival. The more devotees paying the fees, the less will be the cost to the individual. Variable costs like accommodation and prasadam are charged on a user pays basis. Remember that if you come to the festival before the official opening days and/or stay on after the closing days you will be responsible for paying your daily prasadam and accommodation costs. Adults Children under 12 MAYAPUR (17 days) Registration Fee Full $35 $18 Concessional $20 $10 Accommodation Cakra & Gada $17 $10 Gurukula, Wall, Cakra basement & straw huts $10 $5 Tents $2.5 Conch & Gada GH Room donors only. Must pay Festival registration. contact ISKCON Guest house manager Prasadam Full $33 $20 Breakfast only $12 $8 Lunch only $18 $12 Evening milk only $3 Free N.B. 'Festival' prasadam is only available if booked at the time of registration. Other regular prasadam arrangements will be available on a daily basis. Navadvipa Dhama Parikrama (7 days) $35 $18 VRINDAVAN (10 days) Registration Fee Full $35 $18 Concessional $20 $10 Accommodation Fogla Ashrama $13 $6 ***NOTE*** THE HARD COPY HAS $10 PER HEAD BUT WE HAVE JUST BEEN INFORMED OF A PRICE INCREASE BY FOGLA ASHRAMA. Guest house Room donors only Must pay Festival registration. already fully booked Prasadam Full $20 $12 Breakfast only $7 $4 Lunch only $11 $8 Evening milk only $2 Free Parikrama included in registration ***Booking*** Please study the schedule of fees carefully and work out how much your group will need to pay. Then transfer the amount to the account below. Inform Naresvara dasa of the details by 30 January 1995 so that your accommodation will be booked. (Ph.+61 2 666 6466 Fax +61 2 666 3060 or on COM) Remember booking in advance means you will receive priority in the limited accommodation. That is, as long as you notify us. Details for transfer of festival fees as follows: ISKCON Gaura Purnima Festival Fund Account #8197 American Express Bank Old Court House Rd. Calcutta - 700 001 ***Transportation*** These days most devotees are making their own way to Mayapur. For special airport pick-up in Calcutta (groups of 10 or more only) please contact Adridharana dasa. (Ph.+91 33 247 8242 or Fax +91 33 247 8515). There is also a regular ISKCON bus from Calcutta temple to Mayapur which individuals can take advantage of. Contact Calcutta temple. Transport from Mayapur to Calcutta can be booked in Mayapur as usual. Vrindavan temple will have a desk at Mayapur for Registration and booking of Buses from Delhi to Vrindavan. Schedule Monday 13 February Appearance of Lord Nityananda Thursday 16 February First day of GBC meeting Saturday 25 February Ekadasi Sunday 26 February Inauguration of Srila Prabhupada's Puspa Samadhi Mandir Tuesday 28 February ISKCON Managers meeting Wednesday 1 March ISKCON Managers meeting Thursday 2 March Last day of GBC meeting & Inauguration of Mayapur Festival Friday 3 March Navadvipa Mandala Parikrama leaves Thursday 9 March Parikrama returns to Sri Mayapur Chandradoya Mandir Friday 17 March Sri Gaura Purnima Saturday 18 March Jagannatha Misra's Feast Sunday 19 March Departure from Mayapur Tuesday 21 March Inauguration of Vrindavan Festival Wednesday 29 March Final Day of Vrindavan Festival Thursday 30 March Departure from Vrindavan ***Programs*** The programs and seminars in Mayapur will be organised and scheduled by Gauralila prabhu as usual. Generally he has much last minute running around to finalise the schedule. He requests anyone who wants to conduct seminars, workshops, special lectures or cultural performances to please contact him c/o ISKCON Zurich (Fax +41 1 262 3114) or through COM before 10 February. May I remind you that both Shri Shri Radha-Madhava at ISKCON Mayapur and Shri Shri Krishna Balarama at ISKCON Vrindavan welcome gifts of Ghee, dried fruits and nuts, etc. The devotees in Mayapur and Vrindavan look forward to seeing you all very soon at the Gaura Purnima festival. We invite you to join us and give us the dust of your feet. On behalf of the dhama vasis, your servant, Naresvara dasa A PCX file of the Centennial logo has been uploaded on this conference under the name (logo.zip). Following are some guidelines drafted by the Centennial Ministry regarding the use of the logo. Please note that ISKCON Communications Minister, His Holiness Mukunda Goswami, and the Global Centennial Working Committee are recommending that the logo may not be given to the media before the last quarter of 1995. It may be used on publications, stationary, paraphernalia, etc. as indicated in the guideline. Hare Krsna. Your servant, Prasanta Dasi Administrative Secretary, Global Ministry for Srila Prabhupada's Centennial Guidelines Concerning the Centennial Logo FROM THE GLOBAL MINISTRY FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA'S CENTENNIAL History: The Centennial logo was chosen amongst 12 entries submitted by devotees artists over the past two years. The selection was done by the members of the Centennial Ministry, including ISKCON Communications Director, His Holiness Mukunda Goswami, along with a professional consultant in fund raising and advertisement. The logo designer is Pada-sevanam Dasa, chief architectural design director of the Mayapur 'Temple of the Vedic Planetarium.' Definition of a Logo: The dictionary definition of a logo is "an emblem or device used as the mark of an organization in display material." His Holiness Mukunda Goswami further elaborates on this definition as follows: "A logo is supposed to be a readily indentifialble symbol. It is not necessarily something that will stimulate a deep and powerful inspiration, but a special form which will be easily remembered because of its originality and subsequently indentified with what it represents." Why? Why is Srila Prabhupada's face or figure not represented in the Logo? A logo is meant to be applied on a wide variety of items and printed materials. In some cases, these may be subjected to some disrespectful conditions. Here are a few instances: stationery, leaflets, and many other printed materials will be thrown away after use, T-shirs, other clothing, and jewelry may be worn in bathrooms bags may be tread with feet and put on dirty floors, posters may be ripped off when posted in public places, etc. Srila Prabhupada's figure on such items would become defaced. Why does the logo not read "Srila Prabhupada Centennial"? A logo should be simple and easily readable. Preachers and book distributors have experienced that it is difficult for the non-Indian public to read Srila Prabhupada's full name. Guidelines for Use Design: The logo is a symmetrical disign and therefore its application should be oriented symmetrically (ie - for letterheads, business cards, etc.) Liberal spaces should be given around the logo. The space acts as a visul frame. Wording: Although the wording of the logo does not include "Srila", the text of all other Centennial letterings - used on paraphernalia, posters, letterheads, publicatons, banners, etc. - should keep the "Srila" Reproduction: The Centennial Ministry is providing 3 inch wide bromides of the Centennial logo.Temples and Centennial coordinators are free to enlarge or shrunk the design for specific use. Larger size will be available upon request. Colour Version: The Centennial logo is provided in black and white, single, and full colour versions. Please use these established versions. Do not print the logo in a colour of your choice. Public Use The Global Centennial Working Committee determined that the public information aspect of the Centennial should begin in 1996 only in order not to diminish the exposure in 1996. If the logo is introduced to the media too soon and too often it will be "old" and not worth publishing in 1996. Up to the end of 1995 (approximately Srila Prabhupada's Disappearance Day) the logo should be used for internal promotion mainly. However, it may be displayed on the occasion of specific Centennial Campaign events. Sample Items on Which the logo can be applied: Banners, flags, billboards, vehicles, t-shirts, posters, frames, bags, photographs, broches, caps, hats, jackets, saris, coats, shawls, shirts, cadars, framed pictures, cuff links, ties, lapel pins, rings, key chains, decals, pens, paper weights, various forms of jewelry for both men and women, letterheads, envelopes, memos, fax memos, graphics for CD roms, graphics for transmission via COM (consisting of tif and similar types of graphic files), publications, etc. Recommendation for non English speaking countries: The symbol and wording are one unit. Together they form a complete design which is nicely balanced and should not be altered. Please keep the English wording as it is. Do not replace it by a translation into the local language. Using the English wording will also give an international look to the logo and suggest the worldwide range of the Centennial campaign. For some reason, only half of my text was received at Com. The following is the text that was originally written. Hopefully, it will arrive safely this time. In the January 16th text 75792, Hare Krsna dasi submitted an article written by two fellows names Hill and Erickson. This article is entitled "Energy, Agriculture and Waste Management" which presents the idea that switching from a meat-centered diet to a vegetarian one would not accrue any lasting benefits to society. In my reading of the article, I found many of their points to be subjective. They characterized the vegetarian stance as being impractical due to ignoring the difficulty of transportation of food grains, the drastic effect on the economy of switching from a meat-centered diet, that the citizens of the Third World would not adapt to eating the corn which is being used to feed the beefers and that the consumption of this same U.S. corn would not solve protein deficiencies. RE. THE TRANSPORTATION OF GRAIN: What great difficulty is there in transporting grains around the world? My memory is never very good but I do remember reading that there is as much money or more spent on the transporting and processing of agricultural products than what is spent on growing them. So where is the challenge? If the market moves that way, then commerce will quickly follow to fulfill the need. Today when looking at the production of foods by conventional agricultural practice, there is a severe energy deficit. That is the energy spent on growing food conventionally (i.e. with petrol-driven tractors, chemical herbicides, pesticides, transport, etc.) is greater than the calories provided by the food. The fallacy of this system is due to the energy subsidy provided by inexpensive oil which makes this production system seem profitable in the short term. But as soon as the low-priced oil runs out, society will be in very difficult circumstances indeed. There will be mass starvation if we continue to adhere to the present functioning's of an unenlightened market economy. Few will be able to afford the price of grains grown with expensive and non-renewable fuels. Certainly not those relegated to the Third World. Later on in the essay, they mention that the problem with supply is not in land availability but with energy allocation. That too much fuel is being consumed producing consumer products and that this is the limiting factor on agricultural production. Certainly from our perspective, it is hard to understand that a person expounding an inefficient, bogus and demoniac diet can so easily turn around and criticize the satisfying of artificial wants created by consumerism. They can deny it until they are blue in the face, but a meat diet supports a much smaller population since they are eating higher up on the food chain. DRASTIC EFFECT ON THE ECONOMY Their fear is that without these large herds to feed, farmers will have little incentive to produce grains. Couldn't this surplus grain be transformed into ethanol to satisfy the energy requirements of the Western orgy with the automobile. Frankly, I am not at all in favour of turning foodland into fueling automobiles. My point is that these proponents of a meat-centered diet have not considered any alternatives to the status quo. We must understand that the current economic situation is unsustainable due to its connection with the modes of ignorance and passion. CORN NOT BEING PREFERRED BY THIRD WORLD RESIDENTS AND PROTEIN DEFICIENCY I find these points absurd. Corn is considered a heavy feeder and in any crop rotation follows a pasture plowdown or a legume crop. It needs high quantities of nitrogen and because it is a row crop is generally planted on flat land. Corn is grown on the best of lands, at least here in Canada. This same land should be able to produce a wide variety of crops including soybeans, red and black beans, wheat, lentils, etc. Corn is not a perennial meaning that once it is planted it will be there for years. Farmers on the whole should be able to easily adapt their cropping strategies towards a wider variety of crops resulting in a more stable food system due to increased biodiversity. KNOWLEDGE STOLEN BY ILLUSION This short excerpt is a prime example of Krishna not providing proper intelligence to these gentlemen. Due to their devotion to meat-eating, they have donned a set of blinders that allows them to view things from an ethnocentric and biased viewpoint. Modern agriculture is an example of high input and low output agriculture. That is why they allude to the limiting factor of energy towards food production. Even using non-spiritual logic, their premises do not work. And the reason that these things do not work on the material level is because they do not work on the spiritual level. Srila Prabhupada has provided us with a great opportunity to break away from the many delusions of the material world. Krsna consciousness works everywhere, both inside and outside of the temple and this is further proof that it is the Absolute Truth. It is both empirical and practical. However, the real panacea is not shipping grain to the developing countries after lands have been converted from animal feed crops. The sane alternative is to convert to low input, high output agriculture. That translates into planting more perennials, adoption of Permaculture and organic growing methods combined with dependence on animal draft. Farms must close the energy cycle and become self-sufficient if we want food security to return to our agricultural system. Such a program (if done wisely) eliminates agricultural pollution, reduces erosion and the loss of genetic stock, returns biodiversity into the system while providing nutritious food. It is also a natural outgrowth of a spiritual society intent on pleasing Krishna. This higher yielding, sustainable form of agriculture will actually reduce the quantity of land required to support the world's populace, and much of the land now being forced into production of grains to feed the meat diet, can be allowed to regenerate into forest. In the end, we can see that nothing beneficial ever comes from the slaughtering of the cows and oxen. Since it is demoniac and belonging to the mode of ignorance, it can only breed bad karma. And presently, that is the state of the agricultural system propounded by Hill and Erickson. They are living in a fool's paradise. Respectfully yours, Vyapaka dasa ------------------------------------------------------------ It looks like half of this text never made it. Here we go again... ------------------------------------------------------------ 4 February 1995 Potomac, MD USA Dear Nitai Gaurasudar prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, Srila Gurudeva and your service to them. Thank you for your response. It is wonderful news that you are now doing Food for Life in Paris. I heard so many nice stories about the old FFL program that used to be run by Adiraja prabhu. Why are you not allowed to serve free food to needy people. Is it a health restriction, or a political one? It is not the best tactics to go against the authority of the government. Why can't you just find out what they would allow you to do? Certainly they couldn't argue you doing FFL from within the premises of another organization. Have you tried to work with other groups? You say the local authorities like you but the government restricts you. What authorities like you? I have a FFL manual that you can purchase for $25USD if you like. Make payable to: ISKCON COMMUNICATIONS (FFL) 10310 Oaklyn Drive, Potomac, MD 20854 USA As for manpower (devotee-power): Why don't you engage the congregation? FFL is an excellent program for a wide range of people. You simply need to get people interested, then inform them and then involve them. INTEREST--INFORM-INVOLVE. A few tips with fund raising: There are three questions a person or organization will ask themselves before making a donation to charity. 1) Is this charity doing a valuable service? It is extremely important, therefore, that you target a specific NEED in the community. Find out where the social weak point is. In other words, you should define what group of people should we feed that will generate the greatest appreciation and support from the public, media and the government? Of course we are not exclusively interested in feeding the destitute; prasadam is for everyone. However, it is essential that along with our indiscriminate distribution, we also target specific needs in the community. Otherwise people will not take our efforts very seriously. By addressing needs you will make a deep impact on society. 2) How do the members of the charity conduct themselves? Are they committed? It is equally important that we train ALL devotees in how to present themselves to the public in such a way that people get a good and lasting impression of Krsna consciousness. This includes: dress, speech, behavior, vehicles, cleanliness, etc. Always remember that EVERYTHING we do is COMMUNICATING A MESSAGE to the public. Let us set a good example and try to represent Srila Prabhupada in a way which will be memorable; especially with the Centennial approaching. 3) Are these people accountable? Can we be trusted with the way we spend money. Are we using the money in the way in which we tell people? Always remember that truthfulness is the last leg of religion. We can justify so many things in the name of "spreading KC" and "doing the needful", however, it is always better to be truthful. There are so many cheaters in the world today and this therefore should give us more reason to be truthful; especially if we want to stand out amongst the other groups of people. In developing a successful charitable organization, one of the key things to remember is that there is no need to "reinvent the wheel." We simply need to play the game, abide by the rules, work within the community, get to know the right people, develop a good reputation as a trustworthy and professional organization and fill a need. If we can do that, you will find that there is no end to the amount of people who will want to help you with money and facility. Everyone likes to give, however, they prefer to give to a professionally run organization made up of committed people who are doing something valuable for the community. Three points: Valuable service + committment + professionalism = support. Hoping this meets you well. Your servant in the Food for Life mission, --- Forwarded message follows --- Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 18:29:55 +0100 From: ENI Subject: ENI ENI is a subscription based service: information below INTRODUCING ENI E-Mail: eni@wcc-coe.org eni.parti@ecunet.org Ecumenical News International (ENI) is a new news service with a special focus on providing religious news for the international media. At a time when religion is becoming increasingly important in political developments worldwide, ENI, which was launched in Geneva on 1 September 1994, is an important source for non-partisan, independent coverage on the role of religion in news developments. ENI provides original copy from around the world at extremely competitive rates. ENI draws on a worldwide network of correspondents to produce a daily news service, with articles distributed to media Monday to Friday, by electronic mail and fax. ENI uses the latest developments in technology to transmit stories to any computer, terminal or workstation with an INTERNET address - this facility provides a significant reduction in costs for subscribers as well as the possibility to edit ENI stories without re-keying. ENI also produces a printed Bulletin every two weeks, containing the stories of the daily news service, as well as additional background material, features and documentation. ENI has already broken a number of stories of international significance, including: - the controversy in Albania about religious stipulations in the draft constitution, which contributed to the defeat of the constitution in a referendum; - the outspoken denunciation of the Nigerian military government by mainstream church leaders; - the overturning of a major libel case against the leader of Taiwan's largest church, the leading supporter of Taiwanese independence; - controversy about the role of churches in the conflict in former Yugoslavia; In the first 12 weeks of operation, ENI produced 120 stories. Foreign and religion desks with a subscription to ENI can use ENI articles, either in full, or re-edited, provided ENI is acknowledged. ENI can also be a source of information and story ideas for news, feature and editorial writers. We are pleased to offer special introductory rates for 1995 to media subscribers. Please note that these subscription rates are all-inclusive and include non-exclusive reproduction rights. (ENI can be sent free of charge by e-mail, until the end of the year, on a trial basis. Please e-mail the address above if you wish to take up this offer) At present the ENI daily news service and the ENI Bulletin are available in English and French. ENI hopes to offer services in other languages in the near future. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ecumenical News International Subscriptions 1995 Please enter a subscription - on an automatic renewal basis until cancelled - for the following products (an invoice will be sent to you): English French Price per annum (Swizterland: Price includes VAT) [] [] ENI Daily News Service: by electronic mail 240 SFr (US$ 185, #115, A$ 240, NZ$ 300, CN$ 240, DGL 320, DM 285, FF 960, Scr 1325) [] [] ENI Daily News Service: by fax 950 SFr (US$ 730, #450, A$ 950, NZ$ 1190, CH$ 950, DGL 1250, DM 1125, FF 3800, Scr 5000) [] [] ENI Bulletin: Media subscriptions (Published every two weeks) 170 SFr (US$129, #79, A$ 170, NZ$ 210, CN$ 170, DGL 230, DM 199, FF 670, Scr 900) [] [] ENI Bulletin: Media subscriptions (Asia, Africa, Latin America, Central and Eastern Europe and the CIS) (Published every two weeks) 85SFr (US$64.50, #39.50, A$ 85, NZ$ 105, CN$ 85, DGL 115, DM 99.50, FF 335, Scr 450, Irp 685) [] [] ENI Bulletin: Non-Media subscriptions (Published every two weeks) 85SFr (US$64.50, #39.50, A$ 85, NZ$ 105, CN$ 85, DGL 115, DM 99.50, FF 335, Scr 450, Irp 685) Signed ...................... Date .......................... Name Organisation Number/Street Post Code Town/City Country Telephone: Country Code Area Code Telephone Number Fax: Country Code Area Code Fax Number INTERNET address: Please enter full INTERNET address in the form abc.def@efg.hij.kl This form should be returned to: Ecumenical News International PO Box 2100, 150 route de Ferney CH - 1211 Geneva 2 or faxed to: (+41-22) 798 1346 Dear Dayananda Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila prabhupada. Kindly forgive my long dely in replying to your three letters. I was on tour for a month and a half with our band (108), and after that I was serving in Vrindaban for 2 and a half months. Your letters are encouraging. A few general reactions: The pilgrimage to NYC is very nice idea - but I don't think it will be complete without parikrama to all the tirthas created by His Divine Grace, listed so nicely in His Holiness Satsvarupa Maharaj's Prabhupada-lilamrta Vol 2. In your November 14th, 1994 letter you mentioned one of your 5 visions as engaging in highly visible activities. Of course this is great. Now, why not encourage devotees to stop putting on pants everytime they have to walk out on the sidewalk? (Sorry - that's a personal grudge, or bewilderment I have!) You said you would like to speak with me specifically about the rock concert, so I should at least focus a bit more on that aspect: You send, on January 19, a copy of what appears to be a FAX to the artists. You know them better than I do, and you know how to preach better than I do. Still, you asked me to contribute some suggestion, so I'll try whatever I can. If I was a person recieving the fax, I might not read it, because it's not to ME, it's a FAX to a star, not to ME personally. Again let me stress that I know extremely little about music and the music buisness, and the mentality of rock stars (you may laugh, but it's funny AND true). Still I think that the only way you would get people to actually perform is if you already have some inside contact with them. For example His Holiness Mukunda Maharaj already is friends with George Harrison - so there might be a possibility there. But if I send a letter to George Harrison, I doubt he'll ever read it. I guess you should send the fax anyway, but concentrate more on the friendship connections. Another thing is that most of the bands you mentioned are a bunch of "old fogies" . Who will come to see them? Some old folks who already have their whole lives established. I'm not depreciating the value of preaching to such spirit souls in fogey bodies, I'm just saying that they're less receptive, I guess (I don't know for sure if they are, I'm just brainstorming). Now, if you want to get a real lively crowd, then you get major young bands there. Between Raghunatha and myself, and my dear friend Rasaraj das, we know quite a few. Ask His Grace Laxmi Narasimhadeva Prabhu... he used to do these concerts in tompkins square, and that started off the whole straightedge precursor, of which I am simply a poorly digested by-product. So, ask him which bands he had play. He didn't get Led Zepplin and the Grateful Dead. He got Black Flag and a bunch of other durty punks. Sure devotees criticized him, but he is actually the root of one of the only very vital and dynamic new preaching fields surging in North America. So let us, I think, follow that Mahajana. Why these "old news" bands. My mom might come to the show, but there's no way she's going to become a devotee, or even stop eating meat. (Of course there will be tremendous benefit for the publics general attitude towards the devotees, that is a very powerful fact). Anyway, we should get some real bands to play . I do think that the B-52's would be good. More recent bands like that. I am close friends with the singer from Rage Against the Machine, which is definately one of the biggest new bands around. However, it is next to impossible for me to get ahold of him, for two reasons. I am a musician, and so is he - therefore, you can forget about us being in one place long enough to contact each other. But my suggestion is that you contact Bhakta Norm, a very sweet soul in NYC (you can probably get him through Rasaraj). Norm also knows Rage Against the Machine, and he could get them to play, and he has time and resources to contact them. If you are interested, 108 will also play, as long as you can garentee that there will be more than 10 times as many audience then devotees. You should get a hold of Raghunatha in ISKCON Brooklyn and get him to contact his friends. Here is some more advice. There is one annual musical event called the CMJ (College Music Journal something or other) and they have this huge conference of new bands, where all the record labels come and see who they want to exploit next to make lots of money. Anyway, the way they do it is they have lots of different shows, not just one big one. And this way each show can be made more appropriate for the particular bands that are playing. I think that's all I have to rattle on about for the moment. I am honored to recieve your letters, thank you for considering me. I am sorry that I actually know quite little about practical things, but I hope that maybe something I said here was of some service to your grace. Your servant, Vraja Kishor das PS - Please graciously forgive my delinquent spelling and carefree typing. Camp: Bahrain, Arabian Gulf. 25-Jan-95 Well this is late since the original text was written in Sept., but that shows how I am behind in my COM messages. I don't disagree with what Harisauri Prabhu stated, but feel that the situation in South India deserves a special look in regards to Deity worship and ISKCON Foundation work. The style of Deity worship in South India is very traditional since thousands of years and they are accustomed to being able to offer seva or worship to the Deities. The placing of the Lord's Lotus Feet on their head is also a common blessing (the helmet / crown looking thing which is touched to the head is actually having Lotus Feet on its' top). I have observed in Hyderabad, for instance, that many S. Indians feel disoriented when they walk in the temple as it is unclear to them what they are supposed to do. They aren't used to North Indian Temples in S. India. Having a system where they can que up and offer service and get blessings, etc. would probably make things more natural for them. This slight integration of Vrindavan style worship and S. Indian style may be needed in some parts of the world where S. ndians predominate. In Malaysia during Janmastami everyone could come in front of the Deities and pray, take prasadam, caranamrita, etc. For those who wanted to offer a plate of coconuts, incense, and some other items a donation was requested at the place where the plates where offered. In traditional temples you can buy the items from venders outside the temple and then by booking a nominal "seva" ticket offer the items to the Deity. In ISKCON temples around different parts of the world these venders don't usually exist and the only way the devotees can obtain items to offer is either to bring it or if the temple provides. If someone wants to give a bag of apples or oranges to the Pujari for later offering there is really no bar or further donation requested, but when they want it offered on the spot and immediately get prasadam back usually some "seva" donation is requested in traditional temples in S. India at least and in some parts of N. India. We are contemplating doing something like that even in the Mayapur Main temple for a special que of people who want to make such offerings. I don't think it will commercialize the pujaris, but it might limit or regulate how many people do that to those who are more serious about it. I never thought about someone too poor to donate Rs. 5 for the seva donation being deprived to offer something. I don't know if that is a consideration. If someone couldn't afford it and wanted to offer it probably some arrangement could be made. If there isn't any pramana against this system it seems like something which has been going on and somehow the temples need to bring in income. I see many temples with lists of "seva" that could be offered like a Deity Dress, flowers, etc. I would presume that the ticket system was created to distance the pujari's from the commercial aspects of the service being offered and allowing them to simply do the worship. Hopefully pujaris in ISKCON will remain devotional and won't become fruitive about such things and people will be enlivened to offer worship and sponsor services to the Deity. Sponsoring services on anniversaries and important personal dates seems to be a common thing for grihastas to do and helps them to keep Lord Krishna in the center of their lives. None of the above excludes anyone from chanting Hare Krishna, attending the temple programs, or voluntarily offering some kinds of services. It does plant a suggestion to those who have the means to offer some kinds of services to the Deities that they might not have otherwise thought of. I thought it might be useful to bring these things up again in case someone wanted to shed any further light on the subject matter. I appreciated the previous statements.