Transcription of Social Seminar Part II in Abentheuer,
Germany

Harikesa Swami: As far as establishing a proper social
structure is concerned, I am convinced that the "how" is
less important than the "why". That is, we have to develop a
deeper understanding of "why" we do what we do. A society
may for example pass a law against stealing and those who
steal will be punished, but that will be only effective to a
certain degree. If however everyone in the society knows
that stealing is bad, that it's immoral and will bring bad
karma in the future; it will be much easier to manage that
society. Everyone is hoping for a perfect society, but that
cannot be achieved through laws. In ISKCON we also pass many
laws, but simply telling everyone what to do does not build
a society. Having laws is simply an administrative concept;
but the real solution is that all the members of the society
understand religious principles, moral principles, ethics
and responsibility. Since Suhotra Swami has the best grip on
these matters, we have invited him to give us an exposition
of this subject. When we understand these things, society
will function much better. The main point is understanding
"why". If one is convinced on this level, one will always be
able to find a "how". Let us listen carefully and if there
are any questions at the end they should be presented to
Maharaja and he will clear them up for you. Hare Krsna.

Suhotra Swami: Thank you very much. The purpose of this
meeting is to talk about social development. I would like to
start by showing you the face of this book. I find the title
to be very instructive. It tells us the way we should NOT go
when we discuss social development in ISKCON. The book is
called, "The American Evasion of Philosophy - A Genealogy of
Pragmatism." Pragmatism is an approach to the problems of
life. You know the word "pragmatic". It means simply that we
have work to eliminate our problems and put everything in
order again, so that we can return to our real purpose,
which is of course to enjoy life. This philosophy was
actually started in the United States in the last century
and this book discusses all philosophers of that genre. The
book itself is actually not very interesting; I just like
the title.

I got quite a bit of illumination from that transcript of
the previous meeting, when Harikesa Maharaja compared ISKCON
to a revolutionary society, that we are making revolution
against maya. That inspired me to make the connection
between present-day ISKCON and that revolutionary society,
the United States, with its great hopes for a new beginning,
a bright horizon and a new future. All based on the
principle of liberation. Of course it was a mundane concept,
but still there are parallels to ISKCON. For example, the
Americans took it for granted that everything is OK, "We are
free, we have the mandate to do as we like. We'll make our
own future." Thus without considering, as Harikesa Maharaja
was saying, "why" there should be a society, they simply
emphasized the "how" - how to make everything convenient and
easy. Thus the whole culture avoided philosophy and became
simply pragmatic.

    Now, when we, ISKCON, speak of social development, we
not only have to consider the problems of today, but also
those of the next ten thousand years. We want to discuss
culture and that culture has to be solid. Thus it has to be
based on something substantial, rather than on something
ephemeral. We have to reach above the mental plane and that
is why we have philosophy. That is why Srila Prabhupada has
given us his books. He said that these books are going to be
the guide of society for the next ten thousand years. So it
seems to me that if we want to discuss the beginning of
social development, then here's where we have to begin - by
considering how to make Srila Prabhupada's books the actual
foundation of what we do in the present as well as in the
future. Now let's look at how we understand Prabhupada's
books.

     To begin I would like to introduce some western terms.
You may wonder why I'm using western terms. The reason is
that it fits our training. Since we are all coming out of
the western culture and trying to take up varnasrama-dharma,
we should try to understand where we may still have some old
inappropriate conceptions. Therefore I'd like to make a few
points in terms of how philosophy is understood in the West.
There are four departments:

- Epistemology
- Logic
- Metaphysics
- Ethics

This does, however, match up with Vedic philosophy. 

-Epistemology: the problems of knowledge, i.e. what
knowledge is and how it can be attained
-Logic: rational thinking
-Metaphysics: the reality beyond sense perception
-Ethics: the logic behind the morals

    I think everyone will agree that in ISKCON we are strong
in the first three areas. First if all Srila Prabhupada's
books are giving the perfect Vedic explanation of all this
and our western tendency is to move in this direction. Most
of the classes I hear are very about these things,
epistemology - how to know. That means: guru parampara,
sabda brahman. Logic means the system of thought that we
accept and consider reasonable. Metaphysics is that which is
beyond our perception. So these are all very strong.

    However, ethics has been neglected. Ethics is the logic
behind the moral institution. This we don't talk about. It
is not so often discussed in the classes, yet it is so
prominent in Srila Prabhupada's books. The problem is that
in the West the subject of matter of ethics and morality is
not clearly defined. There is some hint coming from the
ancient Greeks. The whole western ethic can be traced back
to the ancient Greeks. So the western idea of "good" (the
moral life) - goes back to the philosopher Socrates and a
few heroes like Achilles and Antigony who are described in
the old myths. They were good people, having heroic
qualities. Simultaneously however they were tragic figures,
because the society in which they lived was not good. The
society harmed them. Socrates, for example, was preaching
that you are not that body. Prab- hupada actually said in a
1966 lecture that he was a mukta-purusa, a liberated soul,
but that society was so degraded that they made him drink
poison. They reasoned that he was corrupting the youth
(starting a sect), so they made him drink poison. Therefore
it is understood in ethics that there are good PEOPLE, but
what constitutes a good SOCIETY has never been clear. Good
people exist; but how to make a society that produces good
people? This is the problem. This is the reason why of these
four subject matters ethics is the most difficult.

     My suspicion is that, since we've all come out of such
a background, that we are not so much attracted to the
subject of ethics. It is problematic. It is controversial.
There are so many points of view. When we turn to Vedic
philosophy however, we find that ethics IS clearly defined.
What ethics is, how one can practice ethics and how one can
become a good person is very clearly defined. So the point
is, if we are going to discuss social development, we must
start with the subject of Vedic ethics. We must first
examine the "good" life.

-What is GOOD? 
-What does it mean to BE GOOD? 
-What is the GOOD LIFE? 
-What are the GOALS? 

    In Bhagavad-gita, Chapter Three, Verse Ten, Lord Krsna
says that yajna, sacrifice, yields all good things.
Sacrifice is the very essence of varnasrama culture.
Everything is based on sacrifice. Vedic culture is a giving
culture, not a taking culture. One problem in the west is
the conditioning to first think of our rights and only
afterwards of our duties. In the modern society people are
more and more concerned about increasing their rights and
reducing their respon- sibilities. As little work as
possible, fewer duties and more rights, these are the goals
of modern society. These goals can all be traced back to
Plato and his " Republic", the basic principle of which is
clearly stated to be EGOISM. This is the word Plato uses and
it has become the foundation of western ethics - egoism.
This is obviously wrong. This is not Vedic culture. This is
mleccha culture. Of course we do give Greeks some credit for
their insight, but it is not very deep. They were Pulindas,
insightful Pulindas. So this is the point - egoism, which
easily evolves into pragmatism.

    SACRIFICE is very much different from egoism. I would
like to here read from a book entitled "The Impact of
Ramanuja's Teaching on Life and Conditions in Society",
which is a nice reference book. In a description of
sacrifice, the ethics of giving, there is an interesting
statement quoted from Manu-samhita: "The householder is said
to be the best of all the asramas, because the grhasta
serves the three other asramas: brahmacari, vanaprastha and
sannyasi. Even as all the rivers flowing eastward and
westward find their steady shelter in the ocean, so the
members of all the asramas without exception find their
shelter in the householders."

     These are the ethics of a culture based on sacrifice,
that grhastha is the best because grhastha has the most
opportunity to render service to the other asramas. That's
why the grhastha is the best. This is the culture of
sacrifice, of giving. Even a great demon like Jarasandha was
trained in varnasrama principles. We may say that he was
only interested in his own prestige, but still he was
prepared to offer his own head to Krsna, Bhimasena and
Arjuna, simply because they had approached him dressed as
brahmanas. They actually had come to beg a battle from him.
He was suspicious, because they neither looked nor spoke
like brahmanas. Still he was prepared to give. He was a
demon, but he was so trained in the culture of giving that
he would chop off his own head if they asked him. This is
the training in varnasrama - giving. That brings us to the
next word: yajna.  If giving is done properly it becomes
yajna. As you know yajna is also a name of Visnu and in the
Vedic scriptures this Lord Yajna is described as Setu. Setu
is a bridge. Visnu or Yajna thus becomes the bridge from the
material world to the spiritual world, or from material
desire, kama, to spiritual desire, prema. On the material
side there are karmis and jnanis who have their selfish
interests, but out of His mercy, the Supreme Lord takes the
form of social activities, sacrifices and the varnasrama
system. He takes this form thus attracting them to accept
the duties of the varnas and asramas. They take up these
duties and thus become accustomed to give, to sacrifice.
Jarasandha, motivated only by social prestige, was a giver;
but this is the culture. He knew that in order to maintain
his self-respect in a varnasrama society he must give.
Giving, giving in charity, giving, giving, giving. Not
taking, taking, taking. Taking is not respectable. Giving is
the essence of culture. Only ksatriyas have the dharma to
take, but they take by conquest and even then they only risk
their lives in defense of the innocent. That is actually the
only reason why a ksatriya should fight. That's why Arjuna
didn't want to fight. He couldn't see who would be
protected. He reasoned that the women and the children would
be left helpless as a result of this battle. Without
protection they will all become degraded and the whole
family tradition will be ruined.

    The ksatriyas' fighting is also a sacrifice. There is
also some interest in gaining the spoils of the battle; but,
if they fight properly, it is also sacrifice. In every
asrama there is sacrifice and reward for the sacrifice. One
is allowed to enjoy the result of the sacrifice, thus one
can satisfy one's mind and senses; but all the while one is
associating with Lord Yajna by following His principles -
the principles established in the Veda and by that
association one becomes purified. One advances in goodness
and finally one comes to a point of understanding that the
best thing to do is to sacrifice EVERYTHING for the Lord. At
that point one must accept a bona fide spiritual master,
because only he can remove the false ego. One surrenders to
the spiritual master and then by continuing to sacrifice
one's way is clear to the transcendental side of the bridge,
the Vaikuntha side.

    As far as the "how" is concerned, Jayadvaita Maharaja
has recommended that we look in the Indian village. Go to
India and study how things are done in villages. It is
simply a question of how to transpose that to the west; but
the real point is "why" we should do this. If we are very
self-interested and egoistic, interested only in our own
rights and not very concerned with ethics (this IS our
unfortunate background), then our talk of varnasrama dharma
is going to be like licking the sealed jar of honey. You can
look at the glass and you can lick it, but you will never
really going to get anywhere with it because the real
essence is yajna, sacrifice, giving. It's a completely
different basis for a human society than that which we have
in the west - it's a completely different "why". This
requires deep consideration, that is, how we ourselves are
to become immersed in this culture of giving.

Harikesa Swami: Can you please talk about how the grhastas
have to perform yajna? Can you give them some practical
examples?

Suhotra Swami: Well, that kind of shifts me off my point a
little.

Harikesa Swami: You were talking about yajna. Everyone has
to perform yajna. You also said that the grhastas are the
best because they perform yajna and support the other
orders, but in the responses I received, they were not
talking about the "whys", but rather they are concerned
about their rights. So, the point you made is very
pertinent. Perhaps you don't realize HOW pertinent it is to
this audience. You have hit the nail right on the head. I'm
hearing the following:

-Who is going to take care of me? 
-I gave so much and what will ISKCON give me?
-What about my rights? 
-Why doesn't anyone respect me? 

    So, I have been trying to push off these points by
saying that they are not important, but you actually have
given the solution to all these problems. It's fantastic.
You've come from another angle and given the solution to all
the particular problems. YAJNA, the principle of giving, not
getting. So, please expand on that.

Suhotra Swami: Yajna is a science. Just like there is a
science in the west which has given us technology. That
science is demoniac. Why is it demoniac? We should examine
this. It's not very hard to understand why it's demoniac,
because the principle of that science is to take from nature
- to wrest the bounties of nature from her hands, to exploit
her, whereas yajna is a means by which the material nature
willingly reciprocates with the desires of the human being.
Why is she willing? Because of yajna. Yajna means at least
sacrificing to the demigods. The demigods are in the mode of
goodness. As we learn from Bhagavad-gita demigods also have
their desires and the human beings should match their
desires with those of the demigods. What we need should be
gotten from the demigods. By coming up to the platform of
goodness, by performing the prescribed sacrifices which are
given in the Vedas, we attract the interest of the demigods.
They become inclined to reward us for our sacrifice. We know
from the Vedas that in earlier times there was even social
mingling between demigods and human beings, because human
beings were so righteous, saintly and sattvic. This is the
science of yajna. In this age the yajna is
sankirtana-dharma. We all know what sankirtana means. Dharma
means essence, quality or religion. The following may sound
a little speculative, but this is my understanding: in Satya
yuga and in Treta yuga even the big demons Hiranyakasipu and
Ravana became powerful by using the dharma of that
particular age. When the dharma was yoga, Hiranyakasipu
stood on his tip-toes. He was performing yoga to become
MATERIALLY powerful. In the Treta-yuga the yajna was the
fire sacrifice, agnihotra yajna. At that time Ravana was
performing sacrifices, but again only for material power.
Similarly in this age we see that people are becoming
materially powerful by performing a kind of perverted
sankirtana. This is known as the information age. We have
the satellites up in space, transmitting all kinds of
information, bouncing it between the continents. There is
advertising, there is political propaganda. The whole basis
of success and power is getting out the message. The world
is full of innocent, foolish people who are being
manipulated by the demons. They make glossy magazines with
all kinds of propaganda, encouraging everyone to engage in
sinful activities. That makes the demons more and more
powerful and thus they exploit the uncontrolled senses of
the general population.

     The whole development of the demoniac society is based
on this perverted sankirtana. That which happens in this
material level is only a shadow of the actual reality. The
reality of this age is harinam sankirtana, Lord Caitanya's
movement. That's the reality. What we are seeing now in the
modern age is just the perverted reflection. Millions and
millions of people around the world are living quite
comfortably as a result of this perverted sankirtana, as a
result of advertising. If you study this, you'll see that
success in every field depends upon some kind of
propagation, because that the nature of this age. It's a
fact. There is not so much notice of someone's personal
strength, his great intelligence or his fortitude - not any
more. People are weak, they may be demoniac-clever, but no
one is controlling their senses anymore, no one has good
qualities; rather on the strength of propaganda people are
becoming successful. If you can make a clever advertising,
catch the people's mind, then overnight you become a big
success. So, why is it that in the movement of real
sankirtana that we can't depend upon that? Now, when I say
sankirtana, I am not limiting it to just a few activities,
because there is already a worldwide arrangement for
propagation of ideas and information exchange. It's already
there. So, as members of the sankirtana movement it seems to
me that this is the direction we should take. This is the
occupation, the vision, that we should have: propagating
Krsna consciousness more and more in all different fields,
in all different ways according to everyone's particular
talent. Grhasthas should particular develop lucrative
businesses based on different forms of sankirtana yajna,
propagation of Krsna consciousness.

     One thing that is necessary is some faith in the
process. It's a science. By performing yajna results will be
given by the grace of the Lord who acts through the powers
of this universe.

Padmanabha Dasa: I found this to be very exciting, this
point about the rights and duties and how that connects with
the western mentality - thinking first of the duties. But I
saw it in a slightly different way. I saw it as a partial
explanation for my present situation, that is that I
overreacted. I came from the society of " rights" and
experienced that that didn't work, so I was prepared to try
something else. What are my duties? Forget my rights. I
tried for some time to simply concentrate on my duties but
finally I got into debt and I got so sick that I had to
decrease my service. I appreciated very much your
explanation, because it helped me understand how I got into
my mess; it was just my own mode of passion, overreacting.

Suhotra Swami: The point that we have to take sankirtana as
the yajna of the age and make a society out of that. Making
a society based on the sankirtana yajna will provide
everyone's needs. That is what yajna does, that's what the
sastra says it will do. I'm not able to go into this history
you are talking about, but obviously we are doing something
wrong. Those who had this bitter experience can discuss
that. My point here is to not throw the baby out with the
bath water. You can't say, "Well, then forget about yajna,
forget about giving." That's out of the question. We can't
say, "We tried it and it didn't work, so let's do something
else. Let's start reading these books like 'The American
Evasion of philosophy'. Let's forget about Vedic philosophy
and get into the real practical things." I have seen this
tendency. I don't want to point any fingers, but I've
noticed this tendency based on these bitter experiences.
Perhaps we should simply accept that our understanding was
insufficient. We speak of "sankirtana yajna", but I think
that we have not fully appreciated what this yajna can
actually accomplish. It is actually meant to be the
scientific foundation (or, if you will, the technological
foundation) of Vedic society, of a whole Vedic culture.
Sankirtana is the only yajna we have. We are not going to
start doing big agnihotra yajnas now, not in this age.
Sankirtana is the only yajna we have. So it seems to me that
this is the direction we should be moving in. Sankirtana is
powerful. We all know that.

Harikesa Swami: Maybe I could help a little here. I think
that varnasrama social structure is also yajna.
Varnasramavata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate pumsam
nanyat tat karma karanat. This is the way to satisfy Visnu.
That's also yajna - satisfying Visnu. So if the sankirtana
yajna is done within the context of the varnasrama structure
it could become even more power- ful. To be a little
practical, if the grhasthas were supporting the temples,
then the brahmacaries could just go out and pass out books
without having to worry about supporting the temples. That's
a practical means of engaging in the yajna.

Suhotra Swami: I was just reading the other day Prabhupada
said that in any age there are two main results that comes
from yajna 1) morality and 2) devotion to Krsna. All the
other benefits accompany these two, which are after all the
real goals. Some of the grhastas may not be so inspired to
hear that their duty is to simply keep the temples running
and let the others preach; but if they are able to fit into
the whole preaching program, if there was a place for them
to represent Krsna consciousness, they will be more
enlivened. Of course simply by being proper grhasthas, by
giving that example to the world of supporting the other
ashrams, they are also preaching. That IS part of the
missionary program. We want to show the world (which is
primarily grhasta) that it IS possible to be grhasta and
make spiritual advancement.

Harikesa Swami: If we expand this concept we have then the
congregation as the economic basis of the temples. I don't
mean these people here who are wearing white. Most of them
are not businessmen, but we would like to include all of
them in the preaching mission. The yajna is definitely
sankirtana. So let them be included in the yajna and not be
concerned that they support the temples with money but
rather by supporting Sacinandana Swami in his program of the
congregational development in Germany so that the
congregation can support the temples and then everyone can
engage in preaching.

Danavir Dasa: According to the varnasrama system the asramas
are for spiritual advancement and the varnas are for
material development - varna tells us how to make our
living. Both fit together to produce one's dharma as long as
one is not on the pure devotional platform. So if we ask
what is the duty of a grhastha it depends on his varna. If
he is a brahmana then he has a whole set of guidelines in
the mode of goodness. If he is in the mode of passion then
he is a ksatriya, he has a different set, etc.

    Srila Prabhupada talked about three different types of
varnasrama, which confused me for some time. Those three
different types are:

1) the asuric varnasrama, which is varnasrama in name only.
It means that one claims to be a brahmana but is not
following the principles, he is not actually qualified,

2) ordinarily varnasrama, wherein the principles of
varnasrama are strictly followed but without Krsna; as in
the case of Jarasandha

and

3) the daivi varnasrama, social structure as Harikesa
Maharaja said according to the verse varnasramavata purusena
parah puman, using varnasrama as a means of pleasing AND
attaining Visnu.

    Prabhupada's understanding of these three was perfect,
but because he used these models interchangeably we get
sometimes confused as to which one is being used at a
particular time. So, when we refer to varnasrama, I think we
have to clarify which one we are referring to. That's one
thing. Whether we are referring to daiva varnasrama, which
is what Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to exemplify. He
considered that the devotees in ISKCON who are strictly
following the orders of guru and who are practicing the
principles of bhakti-yoga were transcendental to varnasrama
system. However he wanted the devotees to play their roles
within daivi varnasrama to show the example to the others
who have no idea what varnasrama is all about. In terms of
grhasthas, again I think we need to clarify we are talking
about devotees. If they are transcendental, then they just
simply have to follow the order of the guru. If they follow
the order of the guru they are perfectly situated, they are
doing all their duties. If they are not on that platform of
pure devotional service then they need some connection to
varnasrama. That means also a consideration of varna and
appropriate duties. We are talking about those devotees who
are not yet on the transcendental platform - kanisthas. They
are certainly not to be regarded as regular karmis or
jnanis. So their position will also have to be defined,
because some devotees are not up to the standards of
madhyama adhikara. They are kanisthas and their roles will
also have to be defined.

Gangadhara Dasa: I want only to mention in one thing. On one
side we speak about idealism but on the other side we also
have our individual needs. We need a bridge from the needs
to the ideal. My personal experience is that I have always
had a problem to get on the bridge remaining stuck on the
platform of dealing with my unfulfilled needs. If I am told
to give something then I also have to have something to
give. My experience is that I'm coming more and more into a
position that I couldn't give because of some psychological
problems.

Suhotra Swami: Maybe you can define those - psychological
problems.

Gangadhara Dasa: Problems in connection with the past ...

Suhotra Swami: In other words you are saying the problems to
give was not that you didn't have something to give, but you
were hesitant to give...

Gangadhara Dasa: There were some blocks...

Suhotra Swami: Some blocks of a psychological nature. That's
interesting. I find that very interesting because it really
seems to me that it just comes back to this point which we
just discussed. Sacrifice is the basis, there is no way
around that. This is the basis of varnasrama culture, but we
have blocks. We have these problems because of our
unfortunate birth and background. (I'm speaking about all of
us.) We are all coming from this egoistic western culture
and therefore we've been trying to perform sankirtana yajna
with all kinds of handicaps and thus we've made mistakes.
These mistakes are sitting in the heart. We remember them,
our own mistakes as well as those of others. We become
suspicious or hesitant or resentful or whatever. Still we
have to understand that our culture is giving. In varnasrama
society, culture means giving. One's position was defined by
how one gave. Just like a brahmana who taught without any
payment. He just depended upon the mercy of Krsna as well as
on Krsna's social arrangement. His maintenance was not
coming out of the sky, there was a social arrangement for
that and he had faith in the system.

    Prabhupada told the story of the brahmana in Krsnanagar
150 years ago whose students would bring him rice, which his
wife would cook with some tree-leaves. That was the subji.
That's what he would live on. Once the king came and said,
"You are such a famous pandit, why don't you come to my
kingdom. I'll give you everything." The brahmana answered,
"No, I'm following my dharma. I'm satisfied." This is the
thing. In the real varnasrama system there are no blocks to
performing yajna. Gangadhara Prabhu really brought out
something important here. This is what we really have to
work on if we want to discuss the basis of a society,
because we all are supposed to be engaged somehow or other
in sankirtana yajna.

Harikesa Swami: These are the "whys". You are talking about
the "whys". I don't know if you know that but actually you
are talking about the "whys".

Suhotra Swami: That was a great point he made.

Gangadhara Dasa: During the past two years I became very
conscious about these things and I put some distance between
myself and our movement. Not that I wanted to do it, but it
happened like that. I also became independent in my
thinking. Previously I was very intensively involved in the
movement, but the problem was the same - I was covered. I
get some ideas and inspiration from others but not by
myself. So this is what I want to have - that the
inspiration comes from myself, from me. Not that I want to
deviate from or criticize the philosophy, but I have some
problems to achieve this.

Harikesa Swami: You're just saying you want to be a good
devotee.

Gangadhara Dasa: Yes, of course.

Suhotra Swami: Part of the movement.

Gangadhara Dasa: Yes.

Suhotra Swami: Maybe in the past one of our problems was
that sankirtana was perhaps an elite thing, like the
Marines. There is a military branch of the United States
called the Marines. They advertise: "We are looking for a
few good men." In other words, the rest of you we don't
need. So, if sankirtana is presented in a similar way then
there will be many householder devotees who have a
difficulty relating to that and thus have difficulty
identifying themselves as part of the sankirtana movement.
Does this say something to you?

Gangadhara Dasa: Yes, of course.

Suhotra Swami: So, we must remove these obstructions, these
blocks, this separation; and try to make sankirtana all
inclusive, try to instill in everyone, whatever their social
position may be, that you are a member of the sankirtana
movement, what you are doing is important to the propagation
of sankirtana, you are part of this. For example, there is a
very successful hotel chain, I forgot which one. They have a
special rule with all their employees - even with the guy
who climbs up the ladder and changes the light bulb. If he
is doing his job and some guest is lost and asks for
assistance, he must help. He must put down his equipment and
accompany the guest to the place where he can get the proper
help. The typical sudra response would have been "I'm busy.
Can't you see, I'm changing a light bulb." In this hotel
chain if he responds in this way, he will immediately be
fired, because the first principle is that all employees
represent the hotel and the guests come first. Everyone
there has the responsibility to take care of the guests.
Similarly, if we want to engage everyone in yajna then
everyone should have be able to see themselves as part of
the mission and to somehow or other in terms of their duty
be preaching - be representing ISKCON. Thus everyone will
get the taste. When we don't have higher taste which comes
from sankirtana yajna then we sink down into these
obsessions about our problems, our minds, our senses, our
needs etc., etc.. Really, the only way we are going to get
over all these problems of rights and this and that and
needs you have to become a little transcendental. That's
also very much a part of Vedic culture and that's comes from
yajna too.

Sacinandana Swami: I really believe we need two types of
bridges. One is the bridge you were talking about, that is
from our level to the Supreme Lord we must do sacrifice.
Ours is a culture of giving and we hear that in the highest
knowledge jivera krsna dasa we are all servants. It's really
our identity. If we don't have a culture around this
identity we are identity-less and I think you made this
point very well. I think, however, it is very important to
take in mind these two responses which you got from
Padmanabha Prabhu and from Gangadhara Prabhu who addressed a
little bit the same thing that they were giving, but it
didn't work. So why didn't it work? I feel we need another
bridge to make it work. And that is that we need to somehow
define or take care to develop our culture of giving so that
individual members give, that they have their basic needs
are fulfilled. I think in this area the need for this
varnasrama steps in. I feel we have these two things intact,
our identity as givers and a structure in which the giving
can take place in such a way that the individuals are
nourished. If you just have good rain coming down but you
don't have an irrigation system you will not nourish the
individual fields. We need to talk also about the irrigation
system, that is how does this wonderful culture of giving,
this wonderful culture which gets us out of the prison of
the false ego, how does this work, how can it work? This
will only work if we talk also about the irrigation system
so that the whole society of devotees is nourished. So I
feel both sides are very important and they are not mutually
exclusive, in other words it's not forbidden to talk about
rights. I know you didn't say this. But to make it very
clear I think it's important to talk about rights on the
level of the irrigation ditches. That everyone gets their
water also.

Padmanabha Dasa: I want to clear up something. Suhotra Swami
previously used the word "bitter" in connection with my
experience. Now Sacinandana Swami is saying "it didn't
work", but I didn't want to give that impression. For me it
DID work. What I went through was very important for me, it
helped me to get a little free from the mode of passion
because passion was the reason that I did what I did. This
is also one of the anxieties I have about the feelings I see
around me, that devotees are thinking, "OK. I was ready to
do this but then something bad happened to me in ISKCON 0and
that shouldn't happen to anyone," but Krsna has everything
under control. I don't think anyone has any right to use the
word "bitter" and blame ISKCON for anything. For me it did
work. To get sick and have debts was a very important
experience.

Sacinandana Swami: For your spiritual realization, but I
don't think the whole society should get sick in the
future...

Padmanabha Dasa: No, that's why we are here...

Sacinanda Swami: So we need to talk about how to make it
good for the whole society. We don't wish them all to get
sick.

Padmanabha Dasa: But some will. I am not the only one who is
in this condition... 

Sacinandana Swami: No. But we talked about a system to avoid
problems. That's very important. Of course on the vaisnava
level you always say everything is not good and it is not
bad. It's a lesson by Krsna to bring me into shape. That is
the only solution in life to take shelter...

Harikesa Swami: Then a compassionate Vaisnava would take
that a step further and say, "I had to suffer debt and
disease, which are the fires that have to be put out. But
although I understood that was good for me I don't think
that everybody else should have to go through the same
thing." So therefore let's set up the system in such a way
that not everybody has to go through debt and disease for
their realization. Although it might just happen to work out
like that for us westerners who are very thick. I agree with
Suhotra Swami completely that westerners are really
confused. Everything here is based on the principles of
egoism and selfishness. It's very important that we learn
these other qualities (maybe by going through the school of
hard knocks), but we should definitely try to avoid that
others go through the school of hard knocks because that is
very painful to see.

Suhotra Swami: I would like to say in response to
Sacinandana Maharaja. It's definitely a fact that "how" is
absolutely necessary but the "how" has to grow out of the
"why". In terms of the western society, Bhaktisidhanta
Sarasvati said, "I don't see anything lacking except Krsna
consciousness". There are so many facilities here which we
can use but we are not yet very clear about the foundation
of our own culture. Therefore when we try to expand our
culture with our western conditioning we get into all kinds
of problems. My point is not to say that we should throw out
all the practical aspects and let Krsna do everything.
That's not the point. My point is that our foundation is
yajna, a culture of giving. I very much appreciated these
two contributions from Padmanabha and Gangadhara Prabhus
because I think this is the real essence here that we have
to bring in everyone, make everyone confident that they can
give. That's where your two bridges come in. We have to show
people that we have a place for them, but on the other side,
if the culture is kind of glossed over, if we don't discuss
the practical application of Prabhupada's books, we will
always have this danger of everything becoming pragmatic and
mechanical and again the latent egoism will again start to
manifest. The point of our society is to become Krsna
conscious and that means we all have to work together to
conquer over this egoism and selfishness.

Arcana Dasi: I see also a problem. I think everybody here in
the room was inspired by the sankirtana mission in the
beginning and almost everybody was going on sankirtana.
Later on there came also other desires or perhaps it was
just too much renunciation. Then comes marriage and the
asrama change, but as Danavir Prabhu said, we overlooked
varnas before and then suddenly someone is in the grhastha
asram, they have to suddenly collect but there was is no
time for getting established in their varna. Therefore there
is pressure to collect and although they want to give they
cannot because they are not yet situated. They never had the
time for this. So, I think we have to make some arrangement
that devotees can find out the varnas. I don't know how to
do this.

Harikesa Swami: Let's organize our discussion a little but
here. First we should stay with Suhotra Swami's
presentation. If we are satisfied that yajna is important,
if we are satisfied that this is the basis, if we are
satisfied that we all have to do this, then we can move on
to another point instead of throwing in this and the that
and the how. We got screwed up with the "hows". We all
accept "how" is important but there is an order to things.
First we want to discuss "why", then we can discuss "how".
When everybody understands why we should do something, it
becomes very easy to figure out how because there are no
longer any sociological blocks. If you don't understand why
you should do something, you will think of a million reasons
how you can't. If you understand why you should do something
you'll figure out a million reasons how you can. So the main
problem I've seen in our society is that not everybody is
lined up with the same vision. I'm going back to what I was
talked about previously for organizations sake. For
organizations sake we should have the same vision. When we
have the same vision then we can easily go to the point of
how to make that vision happen. It's not that difficult. So,
therefore I would like to just put it right back to Suhotra
Swami, to finish up his presentation. If anybody has any
doubts about any of the things he has put there, then bring
up that doubt. Don't just sit there and be afraid to talk.
When your doubt is finished off then we should very
seriously go to that vision which for our society and its
goals and when we all agree on that then we can take the
time to talk about the "how".

Amavasya Dasi: I have one question. Why should the grhasthas
support all the other ashrams. We heard from Danavir Prabhu
that the ashrams are for spiritual advancement and the
varnas are for material advancement. So I can understand
that the vaisyas should support the whole society with their
wealth. But I cannot understand fully why the grhasthas
should support the other asramas.

Suhotra Swami: Yes. I read from Manu smrti that in the Vedic
culture which is based on giving, where to be in a position
where one can give is actually considered to be fortunate.
That is why the grhastha asrama is considered to be the best
of the asramas. They are in the best position to give and
are respected as such in that society.

Amavasya Dasi: OK, but everybody should give. So what should
the grhasthas give? Only the vaisyas have money or maybe
ksatriyas also...

Harikesa Swami: That was my question to you in the first
place...

Suhotra Swami: What is said in the verse is that they should
give service. That's what it said.

Amavasya dasi: Everybody should give service.

Suhotra Swami: Yes.

Amavasya Dasi: Why the grhastha especially?

Suhotra Swami: It says that they are the most fortunate
asrama because according to the varna asrama system the
grhasthas are in a position where they can serve the other
ashrams.

Harikesa Swami: It's like this. Sannyasi doesn't have to
give anything. He goes off and travels on his own. He goes
from town to town, village to village. If he is so inclined
he can give spiritual knowledge to people, but he doesn't
have to do anything. Vanaprasthas have nothing to do with
anybody. They are in the forests performing austerities,
they don't have to give anything. The brahmacaries are
usually young children, taking some education and giving a
little service to their guru. The only ones who are
practically involved with the world sufficiently in order to
be able to give to all other orders of the society are
grhasthas. But your point is well taken that only vaisyas
can give money. Ksatriyas can give protection and brahmanas
can give knowledge. In that way everything works out fine.
So if you are grhastha brahmana you can give knowledge and
receive donations on the basis of your knowledge. If you are
grhastha ksatriya you protect the society, you take taxes.
If you are grhastha vaisya you make money and you give to
the brahmanas donations, you give to the ksatriyas in taxes.
You take care of the brahmacaries, like your children by
supporting them and if the sannyasis happen to come by and
you feel so inclined you may give them donations.

Sugriva Dasa: Could you please explain the connection
between yajna and ethics and morality. I didn't catch that.

Suhotra Swami: OK, I'll make it very simple. Ethics is
defined as the study of what is good, what is the good life.
It's that part of philosophy which is concerned about how
philosophy is manifest in society. Philosophy should make
people good. The question is then how is that goodness
manifested? That's what ethics is. Ethics is defined as the
logic behind the moral institution. We have religion, we
have laws and we have our social traditions. In each of
these things there are do's and don'ts, what you should do
is called pravrtti, what you shouldn't do is called nivrtti.
Ethics give the "why" behind these rules - understanding why
is it good to do this and why it is not good to do that.
Consider Arjuna's dilemma. On one side he is a ksatriya, he
is supposed to fight, but on the other side he thinks, "This
is not that kind of fight that I as ksatriya should fight."
This is how he was thinking. He had an ETHICAL problem.

    This is essence of ethics - the logic behind the
principle of sacrifice - giving on all levels. Ultimately it
means giving to Visnu. Srila Prabhupada says that yajna
means to satisfy Visnu by giving two things

 1) material possessions and
 2) jnana, your knowledge.

These are the two broad divisions of giving in Vedic
society. That constitutes a good life.

Isani Dasi: You said that the grhastha asrama supports all
the other asramas but we can see in the temples we don't
need the grhasthas. Because brahmacaries and brahmacarinis
go out on sankirtana, sannyasis give knowledge. So the
grhasthas are actually not needed so much.

Suhotra Swami: First of all, I wasn't the one who said that
grhasthas support all other asramas. I read from Manu
samhita. It said that grhasthas are the most fortunate
because they are in the position to serve all the others.
You are beginning another discussion about HOW they will
serve. I'm just talking about the why.

Harikesa Swami: What Isani said is not even true. I can't
understand how you make such a statement in public, that we
don't want grhasthas. Then what are YOU doing here?

Isani Dasi: I didn't say we don't want grhasthas, just that
we don't need them. What I said was that we fixed our
attention on the ashrams and therefore we didn't need
grhasthas to finance the temples. We made it on our own.
Now, we realize that's better.

Harikesa Swami: It's better to have congregational people
financing the temples, but we never said that you personally
have to finance the temple as a grhastha. You and your
husband are engaged as managers. That's fine. We do need
you. How can you say we don't need you? Who else is going to
manage? If Visvadeva and you don't do that, who will? How
can you say we don't need you. You said it three times. I
want to know how can you say we don't need you.

Padmanabha Dasa: I think I know how she can say that. As far
as I can see ISKCON runs basically on vaisya principles. We
have big projects which cost a lot of money and thus the
managers are forced to think mostly in terms of money.
Additional problems come because then the biggest collector
has the biggest voice and the whole thing runs in this way -
vaisya principles. Therefore, when someone says we expect
you to support or give service, then automatically she is
forced to think in terms of money because that's our
tradition. So she thinks, "I don't have any money. I am here
managing all the time. How can I give?"

Harikesa Swami: She can give management.

Padmanabha Dasa: Yes. Now she understands.

Harikesa Swami: She does? Do you agree with what he says?

Isani Devi Dasi: Yes. 

Harikesa Swami: So now do you understand?

Isani Devi Dasi: I think I am not the only one who is
thinking like that. Maybe we are coming to the point for
realizing that grhasthas can also give service and that's
the exchange. Like Suhotra Maharaja also said that there
have to be bridges. Also you said that the sannyas and
brahmacari ashrams are already functioning properly. They
don't need social development. But as a society we need a
social development and...

Harikesa Swami: And who specifically amongst the society
needs the social development the most?

Isani Devi Dasi: Grhastha asrama.

Harikesa Swami: That's right. So that's what we are talking
about. So you shouldn't be running ahead and becoming
paranoid. You should just wait. In some time, we don't know
how long, it will work out.

Suhotra Swami: I just like to say again. I find this quote
from Manu-samhita so nice because it's saying the grhasthas
are the most fortunate of the asramas because in that
culture to give service is considered good. It is considered
respectable, wonderful and auspicious. It means that all the
others are looking up to the grhasthas and appreciating that
they are able to do so much service. However the western
mentality reverses this. We see so many slick, glossy
magazines in which some psychologist tells us that the
mentality of servitude is not good. Their conclusion is that
the mentality of servitude means you have no sense of
self-respect. You should be strong, puff up your chest, be a
MAN, or a liberated woman, and tell everyone else what to
do. You should not do anything for anyone else. That is the
ethics of today and the lingering association with this
mentality makes this point a little difficult to understand.
I'm not talking directly about you (Isani) and anything you
said. I'm speaking in general about this verse, why I find
this verse so nice; because it is simply pointing out that
in varnasrama society service is considered to be the most
respectable thing to do. Being the servant of others is
considered wonderful. If you have that position, everyone
will respect you and that's why this verse states that the
grhasthas are the best of the asramas. If we however have
this hang-up from our western conditioning then we have no
faith in this. We hear the word service and we become
suspicious, "Do they want my money? Do they want me to work
myself to death? What do they want from me?" Please don't
misunderstand me, I'm not trying to make anybody here feel
uncomfortable by saying these things. We have to work
together as a society to remove this paranoia of yajna. When
we later discuss HOW to do things, this should always be in
the back of our mind:

    how to make everyone feel happy about whatever role they
    are going to play in the society in giving.

That's the essence of what I am saying. 

Harikesa Swami: That's a very simple point. Does anybody
disagree with that? Does anybody find it hard to accept
that? Does anybody think we should continue this point?
Everybody accepts it. We have the same vision. We should all
be givers, not takers.

    If we are not moving in the same direction, there will
be no satisfactory result. Whenever we try to move, someone
will say no. All the time there will be arguing which way
should we go. Can you imagine being in the car with six
people who all want to go in different directions.
Ultimately it means you can't move in ANY direction.
Therefore the most important thing we've got to do is come
up with the proper direction. One of the ways to do that is
to understand this very important philosophical point of
"why" we should move at all and what our destination is.
Thus we've been discussing that today. We discussed that
last month also very elaborately and probably we need to
continue, because from the comments we are hearing we can
understand that not everybody has the same vision. If we all
have the same vision it will be a lot easier. That's my
point. So one way to get the same vision is topic three on
that proposal for the Social Development Meeting. This was
from yesterday. What all of you did yesterday was an
exercise for preparing. I don't know if you all understood
"why" it was an exercise for preparing. Maybe I can explain
that. Because I gave these six points to force the mind to
think about the basic vision of social development. That
basic vision was divided into six categories. The first two
were something that I understood from Bhurijana Prabhu,
because Bhurijana Prabhu was saying there are some aspects
of the varnasrama culture which we don't want. Also as
Danavir Prabhu explained asuric varnasrama is also what we
don't want. We don't want that you are a brahmana just
because you are born in a brahmana family or you are wearing
a two-paisa thread. We don't want that one caste exploits
another. We don't want that the sudras are looked down upon.
What we do want is that you can be a sudra and be happy
because that's what you are and not feel put down. Also that
you can be protected in your position, that everyone can be
protected. Now I'm talking about values. The first point
was, "What do we want out of the varnasrama system" and
then, "what are the values and goals of the society". In
another words these two things are intimately related. We
want to define and understand the varnas according to the
sastras - the varnas themselves as well as the
inter-relationships between them. It's a descending process,
so we want to know from the sastra. Values and goals are
also given in the sastra but we may not be aware of them.
Everything is in the sastra. For example I went through the
Maha-bharata recently. I found approximately
one-hundred-fifty chapters which simply spoke about ethics
and morality. It's such an important point, that almost all
of the philosophical sections of the Maha- bharata deal
specifically with these things. When the GBC comes and has
its meeting here I'm going to make three sets of
Maha-bharata available for those who want to find out what
our sastra actually says about varnasrama, ethics and
morality. Almost all of the philosophy except for the
Bhagavad-gita (which is in itself also ethics but
transcendental) is strictly about these things. Even
problems you are having now in your minds like how can I be
satisfied was asked by Dhrtarastra to Vidura. Vidura answer
takes at least twenty five chapters of the Maha-bharata -
what to do to be satisfied. Such an important point - how to
be satisfied, how to live a live according to the proper
ethics and morals. Therefore, these first two points are
important - to find the varnas and understand them,
understanding the interrelationships. I think we all accept
that so we needn’t talk about their necessity anymore.

I assume now that everyone in this room understands that the
varnasrama is essential for social development. Is there
anyone in this room who disagrees with that? Don't be
afraid. (PAUSE)

So OK we all agree with that.

Padmanabha Dasa: I actually don't believe that everybody
agrees with that. 

Harikesa Swami: Padmanabha does not believe that everybody
agrees with that. 

Daya Devi Dasi: The question is if we really understood what
we meant about varnasrama dharma.

Harikesa Swami: Then do it now. Question me. It's not
actually a superficial concept if you think about.

Daya Devi Dasi: No, no. If we understand it superficially.

Harikesa Swami: Yes. It's actually the way in which you
relate with other people in the society. It's one of the
most important things there is. It's the way in which you
organize yourself. It's the way in which you live and act
according to your needs.

Danavir Dasa: Some will say that it doesn't apply to us
because we are transcendental. 

Harikesa Swami: If we are so transcendental then why do we
have these problems? Why are we here in this meeting? Does
anybody want to pursue that point that we are
transcendental?

Adisesa Dasa: Danavir Prabhu said that if somebody is
following the instructions of the spiritual master then he
is actually performing devotional service and this is
transcendental to the varnasrama dharma.

Harikesa Swami: OK. Consider all the devotees who have
blooped. Do you maintain that they were transcendental for
the time of following the spiritual master and were situated
on the transcendental platform.

Adisesa Dasa: They didn't follow any longer the
instructions...

Harikesa Swami: Why?

Adisesa Dasa: Free will.

Harikesa Swami: So in other words you can be transcendental
for about a week or two and then you can become fallen and
become worse than a mleccha and that's Vaisnavism. This
doesn't make any sense, to be a Vaisnava for two weeks and
then fall down to become a mleccha.

Adisesa Dasa: So we cannot say that somebody is
transcendental just because he is following the order of the
spiritual master. He just tries.

Harikesa Swami: He is doing sadhana, practicing. Prabhupada
told Hari sauri (I wasn't in the room at that time but Hari
sauri told me right after it), "They are not all Vaisnavas.
If they were, then why do they fall down? Vaisnavas do not
fall down." And Bhurijana Prabhu made that point very nicely
in his paper that bhava bhakti defines a Vaisnava. When you
really talk about a Vaisnava who doesn't fall down, he's on
the platform of bhava bhakti. He's got some love of Godhead.
Otherwise one is simply trying to be a Vaisnava. There are
different kinds of Vaisnavas who are known according to
their sraddha or their faith. When you actually have faith
and sraddha then you are really a sincere Vaisnava. You may
be considered a neophyte devotee when you don't have so much
faith and sraddha and you may fall down because of not being
able to maintain the principles of Vaisnava culture and
philosophy in your life. Therefore some return to the
mleccha principles. Now, what is that reason? I've said this
before. The reason is that you weren't situated in a
materially satisfying way which allowed you to continue your
devotional practices with the least amount of disturbances.
That is necessary for that class of men, which is almost all
of us. If we go back to 1971 and I look in a New York temple
there were a hundred- and-twenty devotees there. Of those
hundred-and-twenty there are approximately three who are
still devotees. That means something is wrong somewhere. We
are not keeping people in a Vaisnava society, because they
didn't have the proper material basis upon which they could
continue when there is trouble. That's what we are trying to
do here - set up a society so that you can stay satisfied
materially and thus continue performing devotional service
even if you are having difficulties. I think that's the most
important aspect of social development, not just demanding
that they be totally transcendental. That's the goal of
course. Let's become totally transcendental and, if all the
devotees in the movement kick me in the head, let me still
continue being a devotee. But not everyone can say that. If
you are at the point when you can say, "No matter what the
material nature throws at me, no matter what debt I am in,
no matter what diseases my body has, no matter what pain I
feel from human relationship, no matter what Krsna does me,
crushes me by His embrace, makes me broken hearted by not
appearing before me; He is my most worshipful Lord
unconditionally, then you are Vaisnava. If you are not yet
on that platform maybe you are Vaisnava-in-training and you
absolutely need a social structure to support you, to
minimize your pain and suffering, so that you can continue
advancing until you get to that point which Lord Caitanya
describes. Is that acceptable? Does anybody disagree with
any of that?

Paramatma Dasa: According to Maharaja's example of the hotel
where the worker is fixing the bulb, every varna has the
duty to give and do service what is required for the
mission, but the doubt comes that if we don't understand
first this principle of giving, then the varna
considerations will simply lead us again primarily to
questions of rights; so first we have to speak of the
duties. If the duties are not paramount, then the varnas
system also can be used as a media for the rights...

Harikesa Swami: Of course both things are required. You have
your duties and responsibilities and then your rewards will
come. This will keep you satisfied. Both those things are
required. I personally think that you can talk about them
equally. It won't be a problem as long as for every right
you speak about, you speak about responsibility. You cannot
talk about rights and forget responsibilities. You cannot
talk about the responsibilities and forget about the rights.
Those who are fruitive by nature will be disturbed by
discussion of responsibilities. First they want to know
what's in it for them? Those who are idealistic in nature
will be frustrated by discussions of rights. Both things are
required to keep everybody happy. Therefore we shouldn't
raise one over the other. We should just be cool and patient
and talk about both. That's why the first point I brought up
here was defining and understanding the varnas according to
sastra - their interrelationships according to their
qualities, their responsibilities and also their rights.
(reading from results of group discussion from previous day)

the brahmana. 

Qualities - peaceful, clean, pure, sense-controlled,
truthful, wise, simple. 

Activities - preaching, puja, cooking, teaching. 

Rights - independent, accepting donations. 

Duties - selflessness, enlightenment of society, sacrifices,
adviser. 

OK. So you did something there, that was good. There is a
lot more one could say about this kind of a thing. But at
least one should understand that I have responsibilities to
the society and I also have some way in which I am
maintained, in which I am satisfied. The brahminical culture
is the most important thing we've got to establish in this
world. Prabhupada spoke about it hundreds of times.
Brahminical culture. The protection of brahminical culture
and the cows. In this modern society we have no brahminical
culture and we do not protect the cows. The cows are being
slaughtered and brahmanas are simply being used to make
money and to support a materialistic society. Brahmanas are
the slaves of the vaisyas in the modern society. To a
certain extent they are also under the control of the
ksatriyas with their military power. There are no brahmanas
who are brahmanas for the sake of being brahmanas. Even if
they are intellectuals, who write books and teach, they are
teaching the values of a degraded society. Therefore what we
really need is a proper group of brahmanas who are
independent of the ksatriyas, the vaisyas and sudras, who
take principles of spiritual life from the sastras and
inject this knowledge into the society on all levels. Just
like that brahmana that Suhotra Swami was talking about. He
was independent. Independent doesn't mean means nobody can
tell me anything. Independent means that I am not physically
or materially dependent on anybody else for my livelihood or
for what I think. I will think independently of the
ksatriyas, the vaisyas, and the sudras. I will give
knowledge according to what is required by the people in
that society without having to be dictated to by others.
That is essential. You must have a group of brahmanas who
are able to direct society without undue pressure. That is
absolutely required. That is what we have to develop - a
brahminical culture - a culture where people are trained up
in good qualities, where people are trained up to be ethical
and to know what ethics is. This is absolutely essential. We
need people who know how to tell a vaisya what are the
proper principles for making money. It is very important
that he make money by honest means, that he not cheat
others. He will not steal from others under the guise of
business. Same thing for sankirtan devotee. Sankirtan
devotees can't tell people that we have drug rehabilitation
programs and we are feeding the poor people all over the
world. They have to go out there and tell people about the
book - attract them to the book on the basis of the book and
sell the book on the basis of spiritual philosophy. That's
an ethic. We are introducing that particular ethic into the
society now through Navina Nirada dasa and his training
program for sankirtan devotees all over the world. In fact
in Russia we have removed people from sankirtan who could
not follow that ethic. We have done this because we have to
establish the brahminical culture. We have to establish the
brahminical ethic. You cannot cheat and lie and steal and
call this preaching. This is not preaching. This is some low
class thing which has entered into our movement because we
are low class. We like to call ourselves Vaisnavas but we
don't even know the basic moral principles. If you read the
Mahabharata you will astounded at what is moral principle.
We are so far away from it, it is ridiculous. Srila
Prabhupada once said, "If I ever told about all of these
things you would faint." There are so many principles to be
followed. We must develop these gradually, gradually,
gradually. I'm not saying introduce them all at once. That
would be hopeless. We can introduce one thing at a time,
like not cheating on book distribution. You need to hear
these things from brahmanas who are not affected by the
principles of vaisyas. If you cannot maintain yourself
without cheating and stealing and lying and harming people
then there is something wrong with what you are trying to
do. We should not have projects supported by cheating
principles. Cheaters cannot remain Krsna conscious.
Similarly I can't cheat either when I am discussing these
principles. I have to tell you straight out what it is.
You're not going to always like it, for example when we talk
about our varnas, because our varna comes from our
qualities. Sometimes we want to cheat in order to be known
as something more than what we are. But who are we cheating?
If I am trying to be a brahmana and I am actually a sudra
then who am I cheating by being a brahmana? Let's say I go
in the gurukula and I'm a sudra who is acting as a brahmana
and I start beating up kids because they make me frustrated.
Then who am I cheating? I'm cheating the kids and I'm
cheating myself. The worst thing is that I'm harming these
kids. What does it mean? I'm committing Vaisnava aparadha.
These children were born in Vaisnava families. I'm hitting
them, I'm beating them, I'm harming them. This is Vaisnava
aparadha. Or when I harm women for instance. I'm supposed to
protect them, they are supposed to be my mother. Where have
we ever heard of people harming their mother? Nobody does
like that. At least in a proper society but we physically
harm the women, we exploit them, we throw them out in the
street without giving them the proper protection sometimes.
In some temples it is quite all right, in other temples they
are exploited. They own half the temple room, you know. So
we should give them that. They should be allowed to do Deity
worship, that's the Gosvami vrddhi. They are allowed to do
Deity worship. This idea they are not allowed to do Deity
worship is artificial. They are allowed to preach Krsna
consciousness, they are allowed to lead kirtans. It is a
question of whom we are cheating when we put ourselves in a
wrong position. We are going to cheat ourselves because we
are going to be unhappy, we are going to be unsatisfied. If
I am acting as a brahmana although I am a sudra I'm going to
hate taking all those baths, keeping my clothes clean. Even
if I drink a glass of water I have to go wash my hands
because it touched my mouth. I'm going to be unhappy doing
that. A sudra likes being dirty. A sudra likes drinking
beer. A sudra likes these things. Why should he try to be a
brahmana and be unhappy? Be a sudra and be happy. That's all
that counts in society. The whole society is meant to make
people happy and if you are happy you can go on in your
Krsna consciousness. In addition to the papers we have
handed out today, I have also received many more. They were
all explaining why they are unhappy. They told me all their
problems, but everything was presented as the fault of
ISKCON. It's ridiculous. If you are unhappy there is
something wrong with you. Just like Vidura instructed
Drtarastra about his unhappiness. Twenty-five chapters are
dedicated to what was wrong with him. Not one verse was
dedicated to what was wrong with the society. It was
personal thing. A sudra is by nature unhappy, because he has
no higher knowledge; but a brahmana is by nature happy and
satisfied. If you are not by nature happy and satisfied you
might not be a brahmana. So why do you try to be one?
Because in the sudra life there are other ways to be happy.
You can engage in some kinds of affairs materially which
will give you satisfaction through the tongue, or through
the belly or the genital. You may have your ignorant type of
happiness. That's acceptable for him but not for a brahmana.
So it's very important that we accept this for our own
happiness. As long as everyone is mixed-up and doesn't know
who he is or has no concern for what he is, then we won't
know how to act. We CAN`T act on the transcendental platform
all the time. It's just not happening. Otherwise why do we
have devotees bloop?

Suhotra Swami: The point you made about independence is
interesting. Srila Prabhupada said in connection with that
brahmana in Krsnanagara who is independent and living very
simply, that that state is actually the goal of the whole
varnasrama society. Everyone is trained, even if they are
not on that platform, to understand that it is the goal to
become independent of the social demands, independent of the
material nature. So that's the value and that explains why
the brahmana was respected - because everyone could
understand, that's the real way to be. However in Kali yuga
other, lower values are accepted, and everybody is unhappy.
No one can be happy if the values are wrong. Even the one
who has brahminical nature in such a society he can't be
happy. Especially you mentioning projects where the ethic is
"make money by hook or by crook", no one can be happy.

Harikesa Swami: Yes. That's the point. Money making is not
the goal of the Krsna consciousness movement. Fund raising
is not the goal of the Krsna consciousness movement. The
goal of the Krsna consciousness movement is to spread love
of Godhead all over the world and to do that we require
certain facility. But how to get that facility? The facility
can be best gotten through the congregational development
program. You do it the way it is done in any Vedic system:
you have a broad base of support for the particular central
facility from which the preaching goes out. Then almost all
the problems are solved. I don't think we even need to talk
about this problem any more. Because that is the solution to
the problem. It's historically the solution, the Catholic
Church did it that way, all the great temples of India did
it that way.

Devotee: I wanted to say something about the congregation.
Because I saw that if we want to spread Krsna consciousness
and if we want that the congregation is supporting the
temple then we have to preach in another way also.

Harikesa Swami: You should bring that up to Sacinandana
Swami and write a little paper. You write a paper how we
should preach to the congregation in order to support. The
importance of the congregation is actually not really as
support, but rather to make them Krsna conscious.
Secondarily, one of the ways in which they become Krsna
conscious is that they give donations to the Vaisnavas to do
preaching. So you can write a paper and give it to
Sacinandana Swami. He will respectfully receive it and take
all the points into considerations.

Devotee: I mean also that not only Sacinandana Swami but
also other preachers or gurus or whatever are preaching so
that everybody can accept it. When they are preaching...

Harikesa Swami: Yes. This is a "why". We have to first
understand what we should do and then we can execute that.
When we understand how valuable and important the
congregation is we will naturally speak in such a way that
the congregation will become attracted to take up a role
like that in society.

Suhotra Swami: Prabhupada said we will conquer the world by
culture. Vedic culture is all- inclusive, not just by
preaching philosophy. The whole lifestyle, you might use
that word, is attractive to all kinds of people. I'm
specifically thinking about Indradyumna Maharaja's preaching
in Poland. He is so expert in creating just a wonderful
atmosphere where everyone just wants to come and do
something and they are all recognized for it. He has at the
end of his tour a big festival and everybody gets a present
and everybody is called to come forward, is praised,
acknowledged, applauded and they feel that they are part of
this culture. It's not preaching only in narrow sense of
giving some doctrine, it's a whole culture. I just wanted to
make that point. Something she said rang a little bell in my
mind.

Harikesa Swami: Everyone can agree with that. Of course WHAT
one speaks is also part of culture. When you explain to
someone what they should do what they shouldn't do, hat's
also part of culture. That's the value of the culture. It's
compatible.

--------

Padmanabha Dasa: I'm having a problem with the definitions
of these two words "duty" and "rights" and therefore I
wanted to introduce the word that Sri Visnupada used in his
previous statement - "facilities". My duties were clear and
I even had SOME "rights"; but I fell apart because I had no
facilities. I didn't have enough space to live, I didn't
have enough time to sleep, I didn't have enough opportunity
to earn money that I needed. So I think we have to have
clear concept of these THREE things if I can introduce
"facilities" in that sense.

Harikesa Swami: Therefore when we had the meeting with all
the temple presidents I told them that instead of being
known as the "temple president" they should now consider
themselves to be "facilitators". They should just try to
facilitate the devotees in the temple, so they get what they
need to do their appointed service. Our philosophy is that
the order of the spiritual master also brings with it the
strength to fulfill that order. Similarly if we give someone
a service in the society, we should simultaneously give him
the appropriate facilities (if we are capable). We may also
ask someone to create his own facility. That person he may
be sufficiently strong enough to actually do such a thing.
But if we have in any way facility for people we should
offer to them to make their life simpler. Most are not
capable of producing all the facilities they need to perform
their particular services. It's a very important point -
facilitation. Did you hear about this discussion?

Padmanabha Dasa: I saw the video.

Harikesa Swami: This facilitation is very important. It's
the principle of the ksatriya. He's got to facilitate.
Protection doesn't just mean I protect you against the
rogues and the rascals. It also means I protect you against
falling down. I protect you against maya. I protect you
against your mind. I give you facilities by which you can
engage practically in devotional service so that you can
advance and the society can advance as you become successful
in your particular service. In Almvik for example things are
going very nicely although it's only been going it for a
year-and- a-half. There we give them facilities to make
money. Some of the less liberal persons were complaining
that certain devotees were getting too much facility, but I
said let them become rich. Let them become opulent. Let them
grow unlimitedly and take care of the cows very nicely. Let
them have more land. Let them expand, because that will
gradually elevate everything. The more wealth the vaisyas
have (since you're all thinking this way, let me use this
example), the more the vaisyas have the better it is for
everybody because then they'll hire others, give them
salaries, a place to live, etc. Vaisyas should become rich.
They shouldn't be dragged down, let them invest in their
businesses, let them develop opulence; but at the same time
they must understand yajna. That ultimately the goal of all
this is to give donations to the temple AND to engage other
Vaisnavas so that they can be satisfied in their services,
to give facilities, to produce things which can be offered
to the Deity. All these things are important parts of the
vaisya-dharma. Everybody's got their yajna. The vaisyas'
yajna is to create facilities for others to work and donate
to the Deity and to the Vaisnavas and to the brahmanas and
pay tax to the ksatriyas. The ksatriyas' yajna is to protect
others even at the cost of his own life. He'll be ready to
lay down his own life for the people he is protecting. If he
cannot maintain and protect the people facilitate them
nicely, he will consider himself a complete failure and he
won't even be able to sleep until he understands how to do
it rightly. Therefore he takes brahminical advice. "Please
tell me how can I facilitate all the people's needs here.
Please tell me how the society can work. O learned brahmana
tell me the means by which I can gain success." The
brahmana's yajna is study. He's got to learn these things.
If you just learn what's in the Mahabharata for example,
what to speak of the Manu-samhita, you will know so much,
Canakya slokas are also valuable. Prabhupada quotes them so
often. You learn how to train up people to be happy. That's
the whole point - how to be happy. How to be responsible,
how to be morally upstanding. Everyone has to perform yajna.
That's actually why I wanted Suhotra Swami to come here. I
was pushing him like anything and actually he came from
Amsterdam. He left at three in the morning to come here. And
he has to leave at two o'clock in the afternoon to go to his
other meetings. He came only for this. So we want to thank
him very much for the nice presentation he made. These are
such important points. These points about yajna. We cannot
take them lightly, because the duties and the yajnas are the
same. The duty in varnasrama system is your yajna.

Suhotra Swami: Just a little embellishment on Maharaja's
nice statement. He was talking about the vaisyas and how
they should become successful and prosperous and engage
others. In this way they will become famous. That should be
encouraged. When we read Caitanya-caritamrta there are so
many famous Vaisnavas, famous in society for their wealth
and their influence, like Pundarika Vidyanidhi. They were
Vaisnavas. They were so respectable. They were the pick of
society...

Harikesa Swami: Ramananda Raya, King Prataparudra.

Suhotra Swami: ... and they were pure Vaisnavas. This is
again my point that ultimately this is yajna. It all comes
back to sankirtan. If a person becomes famous as a Vaisnava
vaisya, then that kirti (that fame) that's part of
sankirtan. Isn't it, Maharaja.

Harikesa Swami: Yes, yes.

Suhotra Swami: Oh, he agrees with me. That's my point. 

Harikesa Swami: Then the people will think I can be a
Vaisnava and also become famous and successful.

Suhotra Swami: And it's all in glorification of Krsna. It
all glorifies Krsna's wonderful social system and everyone
will become attracted. Such people are respected. I recently
read about South Italian society of a hundred years ago,
when people were also in a certain sense quite pious and
God-fearing. Gentlemen were being described, senior members
of society who made such facilities as we are now
describing. There was one description which in particular
fits our present discussion, that of a young village boy,
who came into contact with such a patron. That boy’s
description was very interesting. He was very much impressed
that this man looked so respectable. He said that he had
never seen such a respectable person before, and that this
man's face looked so good that he wanted to drink it like a
glass of water, and after seeing this man the boy simply
wanted to serve him. The man gave him some position in the
stables, taking care of the horses and the boy was so happy,
simply to serve such a nice man. So, this is possible even
in a mundane society but it's actually OUR principle, that
in whatever varna, the leaders are respectable, outstanding
persons. Just to look at their face is thrilling. One wants
to serve such a person. Imagine how easy it will become to
preach - how easy it will become to accomplish the aims of
our mission.

Padmanabha Dasa: So it is our duty to be properly situated
and become purified. 

Suhotra Swami: Purified and prosperous and happy and
influential and famous.

Harikesa Swami: As the Bible says, "Be prosperous and
multiply."

Suhotra Swami: By preaching.

Devotee: What are we discussing now?

Harikesa Swami: We are discussing values. I didn't label it
as such, but this is what we are discussing: what is good in
society, what we want out of society. The value is to become
properly situated. There is nothing wrong with being
situated as a vaisya or sudra, but if you are situated as a
ksatriya or a brahmana, you better make sure you do all of
the things which are required; otherwise you are cheating.
Everyone should become satisfied and happy. These are values
in society. Everyone should be happy. Everyone should be
satisfied. Everyone should be prosperous according to his
needs, according to his requirements. These are values.

Arcana Devi Dasi: The varnas are known according to ones
qualities and, according to consciousness, one can develop
better, so how far is the changing of the varnas also
possible.

Harikesa Swami: Arjuna had the best qualities, didn't he?
Maharaja Yudhisthira had the best qualities, but they
remained ksatriyas. They didn't want to become brahmanas.
They didn't even consider becoming brahmanas. It's not that
upward mobility is required. That's a principle of material
society, "I'm a sudra when I am ten but by the time I am
twenty five I'm going to be a brahmana and I'll climb over
the heads of all those vaisyas and ksatriyas and get up to
the top." We also have an upward mobility, but for us it
upward mobility means to become a Vaisnava and transcend
these material influences. However do not expect that the
material qualities of your body will change.

Suhotra Swami: That's the whole point of the meeting of Lord
Caitanya and Ramananda Raya who was by social estimation was
a sudra. Lord Caitanya embraced him and all the brahmanas
were astonished, but He embraced him because he was such an
advanced Vaisnava.

Harikesa Swami: Please explain to us why Ramananda Raya
wasn't acting as a brahmana. Ramananda Raya had great
qualities. Why wasn't he acting as a brahmana?

Suhotra Swami: That was his station in society. 

Danavir Dasa: It was not his occupation. His occupation was
governor. A governor is not a brahmana. Ramananda Raya had
all philosophical knowledge because he was a Vaisnava, but
his occupation remained governor.

Harikesa Swami: So you can please answer her.

Danavir Dasa: What was her question again?

Padmanabha Dasa: She is expecting the personal qualities to
change in the course of devotional service.

Harikesa Swami: First you should ask her which qualities?
Material qualities or spiritual qualities?

Danavir Dasa: Yes, that's the point. When we talk about
social divisions there are many different criteria for a
different varna. For example Srila Prabhupada uses at least
eight - inclination, one's qualities, one's work,
occupation, intelligence, education, modes of nature, brain.
There are so many different criteria for deciding what's one
varna. Prabhupada used to use it again interchangeably which
can cause confusion. So as far as devotee's qualities
changing Prabhupada also said... It's a question of
education for example. If someone is trained as a brahmana
doesn't matter what his birth is or doesn't matter what his
former station is, if he takes the training and he follows
that then he becomes a brahmana by training. And he gave the
example...

Harikesa Swami: Is it just training? Because you said, "if
he takes the training". What does it mean?

Suhotra Swami: I was thinking again about Ramananda Raya.
When Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya discussed Lord
Caitanya was asking what is the goal of sastric process.
Lord Caitanya was not satisfied until Ramananda Raya
answered with that verse jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva
sthane sthita. Sthane sthita means you remain in your own
position. Ramananda Raya had the qualities and the training
to be a governor, so why should he aspire to do anything
else when he was already properly situated according to guna
and karma. Lord Caitanya was responding to his pure
devotion, taking him into such an intimate association and
discussing the highest topics. So sthane sthita... Simply
become Krsna conscious in your proper position. Don't worry
about anything else.

Danavir Dasa: Sruti-gatam. It means you hear about Krsna. In
other words you practice hearing about Krsna, worshipping
Krsna. Everyone should be a Vaisnava but whatever sthane
sthita sruti-gatam whatever position they have is
immaterial. It doesn't matter whether you are a woman or a
man, or you born in brahmana family. It really doesn't
matter. Whatever position is comfortable for you is suitable
for you to serve Krsna. That's what we also say with
ashrams. Prabhupada says so many times doesn't matter
whether you are a sannyasi or a grhastha. It makes
absolutely no difference whatsoever. Take the position which
will give you the strength to serve Krsna. The same
principle applies to varna - whatever your qualities,
inclinations, training, education, modes of nature, your
brain, etc. Whatever that is doesn't matter if you can serve
Krsna from that position.

Harikesa Swami: In Bhagavad-gita Krsna says, sve sve karmany
abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. From whatever position
you are in you can attain perfection. In that way we should
not be afraid. We can take any position and still serve
Krsna and attain perfection.

Adisesa: Brahmana is supposed to be in the mode of goodness.
As far as I understood from sastra one has to be in mode of
goodness in order to attain transcendence. Mode of goodness
is a spring board to transcendence. So that means everyone
has to become a brahmana in that sense and require
brahminical qualities; but maybe one is by birth a sudra.
Does he have to become a brahmana? I am a little confused
about it now. How can one stay sudra and be Vaisnava...

Harikesa Swami: He is not a sudra. He is none of these
qualifications. He is actually a Vaisnava therefore he is
transcendental to varnasrama. But according to his
particular physical quality his body likes to work in that
particular way. Just like Maharaja Yudhisthira. There was
nobody more brahminical than Maharaja Yudhisthira. He was
more brahminical than the brahmanas. Ambarisa Maharaja asked
the brahmanas what am I now supposed to do here, but then he
himself decided what to do. He knew better than they knew,
but he didn't say now I shall become a brahmana in order to
go back home, back to Godhead. He may have the brahminical
qualities. Maharaja Yudhisthira wasn't influenced by the
mode of passion, was he? He was in the mode of goodness but
when he fought he had to have show some passionate
qualities.

Suhotra Swami: This is also how Bhaktividya Purna Swami
explains the difference between daivi varnasrama and an
ordinarily varnasrama. He said actually, he gives an
interesting example, in daivi varnasrama the varnas are
arranged upright next to one another. In ordinarily
varnasrama they are arranged so that one is on top of
another with gradation upward and downward. You can take
Goloka Vrndavana as your example of daivi varnasrama.
Everyone is on the transcendental platform and the wonderful
thing is (this is Krsna's culture) that even in Goloka
Vrndavana Lord Krsna Himself (apparently a vaisya) He is
respecting Madhumangala his brahmana friend. He invites
Madhumanagala, "Please come to My home. I want to feed and
serve you." Krsna shows this culture Himself. He is not
under influence of the modes of passion and ignorance, being
forced to work out His karma by herding cows and giving milk
to the temple and so on.

Harikesa Swami: Do you understand?

Adisesa: You said that sudra likes to be dirty.

Harikesa Swami: No, no, no. Don't mix those two points. I
said if you like to be dirty then you'd better work as a
sudra. I'm not saying that if you are a Vaisnava and you are
sudra you should go out and pile up the dirt. There is a
difference there and that difference is what Suhotra Swami
just explained.

Adisesa: But my point is that if someone is in the mode of
goodness he doesn't like to be dirty.

Harikesa Swami: Yes. Then he will be a clean sudra. He will
be a sudra who takes bath regularly.

Adisesa: But it means he doesn't work as a sudra.

Harikesa Swami: Not true. He may be a gardener and like that
very much. He may not want to teach in the gurukula. He may
like to just raise flowers for the sake of Krsna, to offer
to Krsna. One of the Alvaras, incarnations of God, was a
gardener. That's all he did was take care of the plants to
offer to the Deity.

Suhotra Swami: Ramanujacarya had one disciple who was (I
believe) a sudra. One day this disciple prayed to Lord
Ranganath, asking Him very humbly if there was any chance at
all for him to be able to go back home, back to Godhead? The
Lord replied, "Not only will you go back home back to
Godhead because of your pure devotion, but anyone who has
any connection will also go back home, you are so dear to
Me." When his spiritual master Ramanujacarya (a brahmana)
heard this he took off his upper cloth and threw it up in
the air, dancing full of joy. His sannyasi disciples
astonished to see this until he explained, "because my
disciple, this sudra, has received the benediction that
anyone who is associated with him will go back to Godhead. I
am associated with him as his spiritual master, so now I
know I will go back to Godhead." THAT is daivi varnasrama,
it's completely different.

Danavir Dasa: Devotional service means in one sense a
classless society. Generally we try to make a classless
society artificially, by that I mean in the material sense
but that can't work because the material bodies are
different. Once you are actually on the spiritual platform
then it's classless society because it's based on the spirit
and body doesn't matter.

Harikesa Swami: It's a very important point you brought up
before about the asura varnasrama, the ordinarily
varnasrama, daivi varnasrama. Do you have it written down?
Can you give me a copy of it?

Danavir Dasa. Yes. It's again this confusion about the three
types of varnasrama which is behind the present discussion.
Different statements made by Srila Prabhupada are being
mixed up. Sometimes when you read what Prabhupada said about
sudras, you are afraid to death: they have no brain, they
are as good as dogs, they are totally dependent. Then
Prabhupada would switch in the same discussion and say and
the sudra is a perfectly wonderful Vaisnava going back to
Godhead. So you wonder how can he be like a dog, brainless,
dirty so many bad qualities and then at the same time. He is
actually talking in the same discussion about the different
varnasrama possibilities.

Harikesa Swami: When is Bhaktividya Purna Swami coming to
Europe.

Suhotra Swami: Balarama's appearance he is supposed to be in
Hungary. 

Harikesa Swami: So he is coming to that meeting. You should
ask him if he can please write a paper about the daivi
varnasrama.

Suhotra Swami: I doubt he would be writing papers, but at
least he can organize his thoughts.

Harikesa Swami: Or he can tell you and you can write a paper
for him. You interview him and write the paper about daivi
varnasrama versus the ordinarily varnasrama. Because I think
a lot of devotees don't understand this point.

Padmanabha Dasa: This whole idea of changing the qualities
was explained ten years ago by Sri Visnupada. He gave the
example of the zebra. The dirty zebra gets purified but the
stripes remain. In the same way I can become purified and
attain higher levels of devotion, but I won't suddenly have
different abilities or different kind of intelligence.
Either I can manage or I can't manage. It's not when I get
purified I have some new choices. Some are thinking that
they can change, some are thinking that they will stay where
they are simply because they are already there; but I see it
even stronger than that, i.e. that I stay in that position
because that's what I "AM". It fits to the qualities that I
have.

Harikesa Swami: And it will make you happy. 

Padmanabha Dasa: Yes, exactly.

Harikesa Swami: What if you weren't happy?

Padmanabha Dasa: Then I know that I am in the wrong place.

Harikesa Swami: And then what are you going to do?

Padmanabha Dasa: Find someone who can help me figure it out. 

Danavir Dasa: It's is also a fact that, when one becomes a
Vaisnava he does also develop the qualities of brahmana
automatically without separate endeavor. He may have the
occupation as a sudra like Ramananda Raya but he was a
Vaisnava therefore he had all the brahminical qualities
without separately endeavoring for them. A real Vaisnava
does qualities of a brahmana.

Harikesa Swami: Ramananda Raya could have taught anybody. 

Suhotra Swami: Advaita Acarya gave Haridasa Thakura the
sraddha patra which is only meant for the best of the
brahmanas. That's the thing. These things they only go on in
Vaisnava society. The smartas are outraged by these things.

Caksu Dasa: Motivation is the dynamic aspect in daivi
varnasrama system. In the material world the motivation
never gets changed. In the daivi varnasrama system the
motivation gets purified because we are serving Krsna and
like this the whole thing becomes dynamic.

Harikesa Swami: That's also values. This discussion is
becoming very nice. We should start listing these values
down on paper. Values and motivations. What motivates you is
your values.

Harsi Dasa: I have observed that in our society that those
who serving as a sudra or vaisyas are considered lower class
devotees ...

Harikesa Swami: That's a mistake. "How" such ideas become
prevalent, we will discuss later on, but it's definitely a
mistake.

Sokanasini Devi Dasi: You said that we are all mixed up and
that we don't know where do we belong. How will we know?
Through ourselves alone or will someone tell us what we are?

Harikesa Swami: Wasn't it Sacinandana Swami who quoted
Navina Krsna Prabhu... 

Sacinandana Swami: Once Srila Prabhupada was asked how one
could find out his varna. Srila Prabhupada said one should
simply find out what one likes to do and what one can easily
do.

Harikesa Swami: In Bombay in 1975 I asked Srila Prabhupada
how one can establish one's varna? He said, "Simply by
chanting Hare Krsna you will become purified enough so that
you will understand your varna."

Danavir dasa: Prabhupada was once asked how one can know
one's varna.He answered that the spiritual master will tell.

Harikesa Swami: If I know someone sufficiently, I can tell
what the proper position is, but we do not always have that
luxury. Sometimes you have to figure it out yourself.
Sometimes the spirit- ual master wants you to figure it out
yourself. I had one disciple, who was a sudra, but because
of his pride and egoism, he insisted on doing brahminical
work. No one accepted him in that role, therefore he left.
He couldn't even follow Vaisnava principles anymore. Still,
he pretended to be a brahmana. I had encouraged him to do
some building, but he refused, saying that it was not his
nature. He couldn't accept any advice. Sometimes the
spiritual master will not tell you, because you're not ready
to accept his conclusion. Rebelling against the spiritual
master may lead to a falldown; but, if you are capable of
hearing, the spiritual master will definitely tell you. If
you are not capable, you'll have to find it out on your own.
Then you can come to the spiritual master and get your
realization confirmed.

Danavir dasa: I'd like to share something which may clear up
some confusion about this. Sometimes we mix the varnas and
the asramas together and create some kind of hybrid. This
just doesn't work. It causes confusion. Varnas show how one
maintains ones self. There are certain rules and
regulations governing the varnas. The asramas show how you
make spiritual advancement. In other words, every single
member of society is supposed to be a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada explained that in the daiva varnasrama system the
regulative principles and the chanting of the rounds are our
live and soul, whether you one is a sannyasi or a sudra. If
you are acting as a sudra in a varnasrama system you will
still chant your rounds, you will still follow the
regulative principles. In daiva varnasrama everyone is
supposed to be a Vaisnava. That's how we make spiritual
advancement. How one earns one's livelihood is the varna.
It's not that only if one is a brahmana, does one have to
follow the regulative principles. Sometimes people think
varnasrama is great because "I am a vaisya and I will not
have to follow the regulative principles anymore."

Harikesa Swami: Very important point.

Danavir dasa: "I'm a vaisya and I don't have to worry about
the scriptures. I don't have to go to the class." But this
is not true if you want to go back to Godhead. Going to the
class is your asrama. You have to follow your asrama. That
will help you go back to Godhead, but the occupation comes
from the varna. I think we have mixed up idea of what
varnasrama is going to be when it comes.

Suhotra Swami: We see daivi varnasrama in the lila of Dhruva
Maharaja. He could not sit on his father's lap because of
some ordinary, mundane sense of social station. Then he went
to the forest with the intention of taking charge of
society; but because he was Krsna conscious the Lord
appeared before him. Thus he became empowered to become king
of a daivi-varnasrama society. He performed all the
functions of a king without becoming in any way entangled -
he even had sense gratification. He was performing his duty.
The king is supposed to enjoy the best of everything in
society. So he was enjoying everything, but it specifically
says in the Bhagavatam that he was not entangled. He was not
attached to any of that and finally he went back home, back
to Godhead. So, my understanding is that daivi varnasrama
actually grows out of complete surrender to Krsna as Dhruva
Maharaja was doing, strictly following the regulative
principles of spiritual life and fixing the mind on Krsna,
becoming completely dependent on Krsna for everything. From
this daivi varnasrama manifests.

/break/

Padmanabha: Does Manu-Samhita give principles for
daivi-varnasrama?

Suhotra Swami: The highest principle is devotion, but karma
and jnana are not condemned. Acting without material desire
is stated as the highest. That's the difference between the
two - daivi and normal.

Padmanabha dasa: In the Manu samhita and other places like
the Mahabharata I find regulations which seem to be only for
specific varnas; for example, a brahmana should only
approach his wife when he wants to have a child. Is it a new
principle here that everyone has the same rules? I was
always thinking that it might make more sense if the
brahmanas had four principles and the ksatriyas three and
the vaisyas two and the sudras one. Then everyone will be
happy and it will all function.

Harikesa Swami: They wouldn't be happy. Not as vaisnavas.
Without satisfying Krsna you can't be happy. There is no
question of it. Daivi varnasrama is found in the principles
of the mahajanas and the great Vaisnavas. Then you find
principles of daivi varnasrama during the reigns of such
kings. Otherwise you don't find in the sastra. This is daivi
varnasrama. Prabhupada has stated in his purports when he
explained those things in the Bhagavatam. All those great
kings in the Bhagavatam established daivi varnasrama in
their society and that's what he wanted us to do. So
everyone has to follow the principles just like he said.
Very important point.

Danavir dasa: I may expand on that point. I was thinking a
lot about this. And so the daivi varnasrama means that
everybody is at the morning program. All the ksatriyas and
the vaisyas and sudras and brahmanas. We should all be
there: all the sannyasis, grhasthas, the brahmacaries. They
are all there at the morning program. And then after the
morning program then we have our occupation. How do I earn
my living? That's my varna. So everyone will go to their
particular varna and then again they will hear about Krsna
in the evening. It's not that some will go to the pub or
something like that. If we think in terms of the varna as
from nine to five, and the asramas as from four to nine,
that might make things clear, because everyone has to
worship Krsna. Don't you agree?

Harikesa Swami: You mean I'm only a brahmana from nine to
five?

Danavir dasa: No. What I mean is ... Everybody has their
asram from four in the morning till nine in the morning.
Everyone has to be there for their asram. It's not that only
brahmanas come to the temple to worship the Deity. Everybody
will come and worship. Everyone will come and pay respects
to the Deity and glorify the Deity and then they will go out
and do their varna during the day. That's basically what we
have in ISKCON. Like Prabhupada said everyone is doing all
different kinds of things but he said varnasrama will help
us to manage society better. It will make it more efficient.
Actually I wrote down some reasons why we should follow
varnasrama.

Harikesa Swami: Go ahead.

Danavir dasa: One of them is that Krsna established it and
He wanted it to be used. Another is that it will provide for
more efficient management in society. Krsna Himself followed
it very strictly as Maharaja pointed out as a vaisya and
then when He was a ksatriya He acted as a perfect ksatriya.
And so the devotees are also supposed to plug themselves in
to this vehicle of varnasrama because it will be more
efficient for them, for their own spiritual advancement and
also to reestablish the culture and to set the standard for
the rest of society. So they have someone to emulate and who
they will be emulating will be devotees. So this will be
their standard of what is a vaisya and what is a ksatriya.
That's why it's a very good opportunity for us to introduce
this because then the rest of society will say, "Oh this is
what a ksatriya is and he will be a Vaisnava. And this is
what a vaisya is but he is also a Vaisnava." So there will
be a very good standard. For spiritual advancement the
varnasrama system is a wonderful vehicle. It's already built
in krsna-bhakti is very subtlely and gently intertwined
within it. So just by following it gradually everyone will
go up. Even if one is not very strong he will be carried by
the varnasrama system. The varnasrama system will carry him
alone upward towards. As you were pointing out the brahmanas
are held in such high esteem in society, why? Because of
their qualities. Brahman janatiti brahmana. He knows
brahman. He knows he is a spirit soul. Ultimately the
brahmana should be a Vaisnava, brahmana-Vaisnava. So those
qualities are appreciated in the society. Brahminical
culture means that the brahmin's qualities are honored,
respected and adored. And once that happens then everyone
has to gravitate towards those qualities. Ksatriya's
qualities are not as great as great as the brahmana's
quality. He is given a lot of responsibility in society but
he is not as qualified as a brahmana. A Ksatriya can conquer
a kingdom but the brahmana can conquer his senses.
Varnasrama is very good for economic development, is a
perfect natural system for everyone - the social structure
that works. Hrdayananda Maharaja gave an example once. He
said the varnasrama is perfect because it employs four major
systems. He said for example for the brahmanas there is a
certain responsible independence, for the ksatriyas
monarchy, for the vaisyas capitalism and for the sudras
communism. And he said varnasrama includes all of them all
in one. So it's the perfect social system that brings out
the best of whatever we find. And as far as recruitment? If
we are want to discuss making devotees (the essence of the
SKP movement) varnasrama will make it so much easier for us
to recruit them. We will have devotees by the thousands
instead of just a few here and there. It will be a mass
devotee making program in society. For good progeny
varnasrama is very important. If we don't follow varnasrama
principles we are going to get varna-sankara, we are going
to get those souls who are very rebellious and are not very
interested in spiritual matters. If follow the varnasrama
principles and the samskaras, we will get good progeny. If
we want peace in the world then varnasrama is the only way
to get peace. Otherwise there will always be this
competition, unnecessarily fighting. Prabhupada gives an
example that the varnasrama or the varnas are just like the
body. So the head, the arms, the belly and the legs they all
work co-operatively together. So in the social system if we
introduce varnasrama then there will be peace. Everyone will
get along very nicely without envy. The sudras won't be
trying to become the brahmanas artificially and everyone
will happily respect everyone. The last point is that Srila
Prabhupada said we must introduce it. So that's the main
thing. Prabhupada has given us the order. So, even though
it's been a little difficult for us to understand how to
practically introduce, the order is there and therefore the
facility to understand it must also be there.

				-----			

Diviratha das: This topic of who is going to decide when
someone is directed into his varna and how and when it's
decided, is a big topic in Germany. Maybe it's a typical
German reaction, I don't know, but it is one of the great
fears for those who are a little bit conversant with this
subject. The comments that have been made thus far support
the idea that the individual will gradually find out his
position after some time by following the Krsna conscious
process of sad- hana-bhakti. Will it actually happen like
that in practice? We are generally a too quick to label
people and there is some fear of that. Aren't the teachers
also responsible to determine what the proper varna and
asrama is? Also are they not responsible to control one's
education, that is, when and how long one should attend
school. .

Suhotra Swami: The best example that I know of is
Bhaktividyapurna Swami's academy in Mayapur. I know him very
well and I stayed in his gurukula academy this year for
about four months. He is a very good brahmana, that means
he's patient, very tolerant, and he is like a father to
these boys. His school is concentrating on boys from 9 or 10
years old up to their late teens. He makes them welcome,
gives them all a place and preaches to them. He observes
what they are doing very carefully and counsels them.
Gradually, and very gently, he starts to separate them into
duties according to the nature he sees in them. At every
step he makes sure that they understand what is happening
and also why it's happening, that it is the best for them.
He makes sure that they accept it in their heart. When we
speak of varnasrama, we mean culture. Culture is not simple
thing.

    Culture consists of the ideals and the values that are
important to us - important enough that we want to hand them
down generation after generation. Again that brings us back
to yajna because in BG 3.10. Krsna says: in the beginning of
creation Lord Brahma gave this sacrifice along with the
generation of men and demigods. They handed it down because
this yajna is so valuable; it is the most precious thing.
This is culture. Social development actually means
establishing a culture. That's a big thing, it's deep.

    When I saw this first transcript, from your previous
meeting in Abentheuer, Harikesa Maharaja was making these
points, two points which I really resonated with, about
responsibility,

    1) that everyone in society has to accept responsibility
    for their place in society;

	and 

	2) that the family should be based on love. 

    Varnasrama involves the extended family, like in India.
A family related by a sense of responsibility and love.
That's culture. Then I saw the questions that came after
that. They were the quick-fix-it kind of questions: What we
do about that, what about that, grhastas this and money that
and this and that and this and that. You can't create a
culture like that, simply making a list of questions and
answers and, "OK, all these pragmatic problems are solved,
let's go." Please don't again understand me falsely. I don't
want to say that we are discouraging that, that's also
important; but if you are going to talk about an actual
basic of a society that will last, there has to be culture
and culture is very, very deep. Not only that but we are
also coming from a bad background. We are culturally
confused, we are ethically confused; and that's why we have
been talking about this all morning.

     Culture is like a compass. The sastra provides a nice
map, but we also need an internal compass and that has to be
we developed by embracing values of varnasrama-dharma within
our heart - without fear, without resentment, without
suspicion that we will be exploited by being forced into
some position I don't want. Such anxieties are the real
stumbling blocks and these stumbling blocks are coming from
our western background. These influences are still deep
within our minds but we have joined this movement to
overcome this. Krsna consciousness cannot be a system based
on western values with some chanting on top of it. It's not
going to work.

Diviratha: But I still see this fear about who will make
those varna and asrama decisions, fear of those who are in
charge.

Harikesa Swami: The brahmanas are not in charge,...

Diviratha: Are they not ultimately those who decide ?

Harikesa Swami: No, they are not. They just tell the
ksatriyas what they should do, how they should work, what
the principles are, the ksatriyas decide. Just like
nowadays, except that the people who do it should have good
qualities instead of being mlecchas.

Diviratha: And the gurukula, the teachers ? 

Suhotra Swami: You are talking about the separation.

Diviratha: Yes, they see that one child is a brahmana, he
should stay in school and the other child should leave..

Suhotra Swami: What you are asking is that others, looking
on this, may not trust that brahmana who is making these
separation.

Harikesa Swami: It's also according to the child. There is a
much different way to determine these things with children,
than there is to do it with adults. The children naturally
want to go on with their education when they are
brahminically inclined. Sudras will want to develop their
particular practical skill. The vaisyas want to go to
business-and-management school. They NATURALLY go for these
things. The ksatriyas go for political science and training.
That's already even there in this modern society, so why
should everyone be so worried? The difference is, that in
the varnasrama society everyone will perform there duty with
the proper qualities and with proper motivation, not that
one makes all his career decisions simply based on how much
he can earn. If someone IS making his decisions based on
money, then he is probably a vaisya. If they are making
their decisions based on fame, they could be sudras. If they
are making their decision based on power, they could be
Ksatriyas and if they simply want knowledge, they could be
brahmanas. It's practically the same thing, except that

    1)we recognize a person according to the actual
qualities and  train him according to those qualities

	and 

    2) we don't discriminate between the different orders in
    daivi varnasrama.

Suhotra Swami: Just to put it in another way: In both cases
the bottom line is results. In varnasrama dharma, we are
looking for Krsna consciousness whereas the material society
is looking for so-called material well being, which means
money. We are looking for a different set of results. Again
I'm thinking of Bhaktividyapurna Swami. There is one boy, 18
years old. The devotees from his own country remember him
from the time he left for the gurukula. Then he was ten.
When he returned at 18, he started giving seminars, quoting
sastra and simply amazing all the so-called brahmans in the
temple. Now they know, this is a REAL brahmana. Of course,
then they have faith in the school he attended, and that
Bhaktividyapurna Swami knows what he is doing, and that's
what I have been hearing. I hear it from different sources.
That's my point, the test is results.

Sacinandana Swami: We obviously want to embrace the culture
of giving but there is another obstacle which we have to
address. I mean motivation. If people are wrongly motivated,
they can not be happy with achievements in service and will
not be comfortable with values of giving. I feel that a lot
of that motivation is really dictated by something very
awesome, the three modes of material nature. When we talk
about developing varnasrama and spiritual ethics, we must
talk about conquering the lower modes of passion and
ignorance, which are unfortunately so prominent in our
western codes. For this there are two standards or two
procedures.

    1) The spiritual system: One must conquer the modes of
passion and ignorance, by developing the mode of goodness
and then one must become detached from the mode of goodness
by promoting oneself to the platform of suddha sattva. This
can automatically be achieved, if one engages in the service
of the spiritual master with faith and devotion. Prabhupada
says this surrendering to the spiritual master is the
process of treating the root cause of all ailments. He
says: " Just by treating the root of an ailment, one can
conquer all bodily pains and sufferings. Similarly, if one
is devoted and faithful to the spiritual master,he can
conquer the influence of sattva guna, tama guna and raja
guna very easily."

     2) We are also talking now about properly situating
ourselves in our varnas, no longer pretending to be someone
we are not

Are these two things contradictory, or do they go hand in
hand?

Suhotra Swami: Surrender to the spiritual master does not
negate varnasrama dharma.

Sacinandana swami: ...because Prabhupada preaches varnasrama
dharma.

Suhotra Swami . Yes, so the spiritual master creates a
program for you to overcome your modes of passion and
ignorance, come to the mode of goodness and finally suddha
sattva, by engaging you according to varna and asrama and
there is no contradiction at all between the two. Also in
varnasrama dharma you must accept a spiritual master. Now
the thing is (this is one difference between the daivi and
the ordinary varna) that the spiritual master is a suddha
vaisnava. He is also engaging his disciples according to
varna and asrama, but he is engaging them in devotional
service to Krsna and he is preaching to them. Thus they can
give up their false ego. The false ego is actually the basis
of the influences of the modes of nature. The modes of
nature, as we know from the Bhagavatam, operate on that
basis of ahankara. We are troubled by these modes only
because of the false ego. The spiritual master is the key to
get over the false ego. His program of working his
disciples, preaching to them, chastising them, correcting
them, engaging them properly, tolerating all their mistakes
and engaging them again and again and again, is mainly to
get them over the false ego. It's just like busy airport.
The airplanes are kept in a holding pattern until they can
land. So the spiritual master keeps his disciples in a kind
of holding pattern in varnasrama and then he brings them
down, one by one. Others he moves from level to level. These
"level" differences are not so important, because everyone
is on the way down, coming to the spiritual platform.
Whereas we could say that in the prakrta-varnasrama, which
is only based on the principles of the three modes of the
material nature, the spiritual masters are only kula- gurus,
family gurus. They are born brahmanas and they teach
stereotyped brahminical principles. It's actually material.
It has some benefit also, but they definitely won't come to
the visuddha platform, because the spiritual master is not
qualified to bring them to that platform.

Sacinandana swami: Shouldn't then our spiritual masters and
the GBC chalk out a varnasrama system for ISKCON which will
work? I remember a few years ago there was an attempt in our
zone in this direction, but it was given up. Will the GBC
now work on this? How will you do it, if it is so necessary?

Suhotra Swami: That's why we are having this meeting here. 

Sacinandana Swami: Why do you think it did not work when we
did it formerly, I mean we wrote many papers, a few years
ago, we had boards on the wall with the rights of the
different varnas and their duties, and everyone was supposed
to look at them and then find out: this is my varna, and I
will do this. Could you give us some faith that it will work
this time?

Suhotra Swami: Well, may be we had to learn something from
the school of hard knocks...

Danavir d: Speaking of school, I think that this is an
important point. Srila Prabhupada said we have to institute
varnasrama college immediately. If we're going to be
successful in varnasrama, we have to have a systematic
method of training and that will be varnasrama college, were
the brahmanas are taking the position of training not only
brahmans, but also the vaisyas and the ksatriyas in
accordance with varnasrama principles. For example, none of
us are trained as ksatriyas, so it's difficult for us to
imagine, how am I going to act as a ksatriya. We don't know
what are the qualities of a ksatriya in practice. So I think
simultaneous some of the societies are feeling the pinch to
incorporate this as soon as possible. I feel it. I am also
in New Vrindavana and it's a similar situation, we urgently
need something. At the same time I think that we are going
to have to apply ourselves to the institution of training
all the different roles in our society, then we will really
know, because we will have been researching, we will have
been training and educating and practicing it. So within a
few years we will actually be producing persons who will be
properly acting. Prabhupada said, we should introduce
varnasrama college immediately. He also said that it is
difficult, that we weren't quite ready yet. So we should not
be discouraged.It is not an easy thing. In fact, if you
study Srila Prabhupada's comments on the talks between
Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya, often he would say that
Lord Caitanya thought that it wasn't very applicable or
possible to re-institute the varnasrama system in the age of
Kali. So many times he would discuss that. But then later on
Prabhupada began to emphasize more that we have to introduce
this daiva varnasrama.

Harikesa Swami: In Lord Caitanya's society they had
varnasrama dharma, they did not have to re-institute it.

Suhotra Swami: There is a letter written to Hamsaduta, when
he was planing to get a farm in Germany in the early
seventies. Hamsaduta had proposed some scheme for varnasrama
dharma and Prabhupada replied: varnasrama dharma is very
good for material life, but we are not interested in this.
Different kind of things can be said about that, but
Prabhupada did say it. Anyway varnasrama is for material
life, but are we free from that? That is the question and
that's what Harikesa Maharaja has been pointing out. If we
are able to chant Hare Krsna 24 hour a day, always
remembering the Lord and chanting spontaneously, even in our
sleep,.. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna...and always feeling
transcendental ecstasy, then may be we could speak of
freedom from matter, but when we are not on that platform,
then we have to admit that we are conditioned by material
nature. Therefore we do have to make a sattvic arrangement
for ourselves in relationship to the material nature so that
we can advance in devotional service.

Arcana: In establishing varnasrama would there be a change
for giving brahmana initiation to people after two years?
Are they then brahmanas or do they become brahmanas?

Danavir: I have the answer here, it's a brief kind of
summary of the question you are asking.

Danavir Prabhu reads:

    Devotee: Should devotees be formally designated in a
    particular occupation?

    Prabhupada: " No. Devotees are devotees. We, so far as
we  are concerned, Krsna conscious men, we are above VD.
But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take
part in any order of life, just like a servant is doing.
Master is: oh, you cannot do ? Just see. Like Dhruva
Maharaja and his killing. Similarly if we act in varnasrama,
still we have nothing to do with the varnasrama. Krsna is
neither ksatriya, nor brahmana, whatever. So Devotee is like
that. He may act in any position, but he is above all the
material conception of life.

     Tamal krsna: In our centers we are awarding brahmana
     initiations, second initiation..

    Prabhupada: " No, no, initiation should go on, that is
for Vaisnava. Vaisnava is transcendental. But for
proper management of the material  world, one should be
acting like brahmana, ksatriya. Just like we actually, we
are doing so. Some of you are preaching, some of you are
cleaning the temple, their position as vaisnava is the same.
Is it not because now that I have been taking sannyas,
therefore I cannot anymore do anything. If need be, he has
to act as ksatriya, or as sudra,it doesn't matter.-- "

Danavir: then Srila Prabhupada gives the example of thieves
who were devotee thieves, and gopis acting more or less like
prostitutes, he gave those examples. He said: " Just like in
a stage play."

Danavir continuing to read:

    Maitreya Rsi: So in our movement the leaders must decide
how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly?

    Prabhupada: That is leadership. Which man is fit for
which work. Everyone should be trained as Vaisnava at
the same time he should work in different positions for
management.

Suhotra Swami: I have heard from several sources who have
studied this, that it was Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Thakur,
who instituted this second initiation for the purpose of
establishing that a Vaisnava is automatically a brahmana;
still within the Vaisnava society different duties can be
there.

Sacinandana Swami: It seems to me, however, that it is much
more difficult to be a Vaisnava than a brahmana. It's much
higher, really because it is on such an exalted level of
consciousness, so I personally think the question which
Arcana puts needs still to be addressed. Is it that everyone
who is in our movement after two years is recognized as a
full grown Vaisnava and therefore automatically a brahmana
or is there some discrimination in the future.?

Suhotra Swami: Well, to accept second initiation even now,
there are requirements. There are tests for example. If the
point is: is he actually a Vaisnava and therefore
automatically a brahmana? The answer is that he is a
Vaisnava-in-training. Prabhupada said this stage is like a
fire which has burnt out, but which still has some glowing
embers. That means that the potential is there. So you have
to put some fuel and you have to fan it. These are
facilities. The spiritual master sees this potential - that
this person has taken to Krsna consciousness and he is
showing the potential of brahmanism, so spiritual master
gives the facility. I mean simply that everything is
ultimately resting on this mercy of the spiritual master. He
gives the facility and is fanning, so that the disciple may
become a full-fledged brahmana.

Sacinandana Swami: I have seen basically two types of ISKCON
brahmanas. Both have passed the tests. One, he takes care of
the time of chanting the mantras, he is clean, his habits
are examplary, he reads, he likes to chant. And I have seen
other brahmanas who chant their Gayatri mantra just before
the prasadam and wave with their hands to get the pizza on
the plate, they grow beards, their habits are going into the
realms of video looking, which are still permitable. So are
they both brahmanas ? It's difficult to understand.

Suhotra Swami: Is it difficult? ( Laughter )

Sacinandana Swami: I am also personally concerned, because
some of my godbrothers tell me, that I should give brahmana
initiation to everyone who passes the test, but I am saying
no, because I know this person will be of the second type of
brahmana.

Suhotra Swami: Yes, well, it is up to the spiritual master.
He has to see the qualities. The test is there, of course,
but ultimately the spiritual master is the one who takes the
karma.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I remember Prabhupada talked about
brahmanas not being fully qualified, and he said that
brahmanas are a very high order and that we also have
brahma- bandhus. We might have to call them brahma-bandhus.

Sacinandana Swami: And give them second initiation?

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: No, No.

Suhotra Swami: Of course there is a another kind of second
initiation, upanayana, which they get in the gurukula. Which
is, they get a thread, but it is not the same thing as the
vaisnava initiation.

Padmanabha das: There is a vocabulary problem here. The
initiation for the gayatri we call brahmana initiation, but
brahmans, ksatriyas and vaisyas were traditionally initiated
in this.

Suhotra Swami: Yes, upanayana. This initiation that we get,
the vaisnava initiation, is diksa, were Prabhupada said the
spiritual master accepts the disciple. This is serious. This
is the commitment to take this person back to Godhead And
then there is the upanayana, which is, like Bhaktivaibhava
Maharaja was saying, brahma-bandhu or whatever. That can
also be done.

Harikesa Swami: Sacinandana Swami, are you thinking that you
can only initiate people who have the qualities of a
brahmana as second initiation? Or are you thinking that
every vaisnava who is transcendentally engaged in devotional
service under your order, even if he doesn't have all the
qualities of a brahmana, can receive second initiation?

Sacinandana Swami: I think many devotees fall from Krsna
consciousness because they have an improper understanding
about themselves. One may falsely see himself as a brahmana
and thus make mistakes. Giving such devotees brahmana
initiation might contribute to a falldown if they are not
qualified like brahmanas.

Harikesa Swami: But what if they're qualified as Vaisnavas?

Sacinandana Swami: Then they will not fall down, but so many
are not qualified.

Harikesa Swami: Then why do you initiate anyone?

Sacinandana Swami: First initiation gives a chance...

Harikesa Swami: Then you should tell everybody before you
initiate them: You can get first initiation easily, but I
may not give you second initiation. That's only fair. When
you give them first initiation and they are thinking they
are going to get second initiation after a certain time, and
then you tell them: no, no, no, that wasn't the deal, then
they suffer because of false expectations. That's cheating.
So you should have a paper that you hand out to every
perspective disciple: that I reserve the right of refusing
to give you second initiation depending on whether you come
to what I think is the standard of being a brahmana.

Sacinandana Swami: I have done this now. That is
permissible?

Harikesa Swami: Well, you better do that.

Sacinandana Swami: Yes. But to take such a stand? 

Harikesa Swami: Prabhupada never did it, but if you want to
do it, that's your decision. Yes, the chairman of the GBC
can give you permission (ed. Suhotra Swami is Chairman of
the GBC for the year 1996-1997).

Suhotra Swami: It appears to me that it is within the right
of the spiritual master to set individual standards, as long
as they're not less than ISKCON standard. They can be more
elaborate or more specific.

Harikesa Swami: Just as long as the people know about it in
advance.

Suhotra Swami: Yes, that's the point, it has to be spelled
out from the beginning, I agree with that completely.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I see a problem with recommendations.
If the TP thinks someone is qualified and recommends him,
but the guru thinks he is not qualified, there may be a lot
of conflicts. Better to have one standard.

Sacinandana Swami: Yes, we should have one standard, it's
much easier. We are one society.

Harikesa Swami: I guess we will end here for now, so we want
to thank Suhotra Swami very much for coming.

Suhotra Swami: And I want to thank Harikesa Maharaja for
twisting my arm to come. He personally called me up a couple
of days ago to remind me, otherwise I probably wouldn't have
come. It was very rewarding to have all your association and
hear your points of view. Nobody says this is easy, least of
all me, but I am sure, if the Vaisnavas work together
sincerely, Krsna will help us.



        ----------Afternoon Session-----------

First a list of topics for further discussion was compiled:

1. Mistakes in the past

2. Treatment of Women in ISKCON

3. Mutual respect

4. the Value of Committees

5. Deity Standard in Germany

6. Responsibility

7. How to install the mood of GIVING

8. Training system for varnas and asramas (including human
values)

9. Encouragement of sudras in ISKCON

10. How to engage intellectuals (mistakes in past)

11. How to create a truthful atmosphere

12. Training of varna and asram as part of temple structure

13. The role of the temple 

14. The ideal in the different practical services

15. Maintaining our vaisnava youth

16. The bad reputation of the grhasta asrama

Harikesa Swami: We have a big list here, but most of this is
covered in one shot. That is again, that the "hows" are
covered by understanding the "whys". In other words if you
want to facilitate the "hows", just continue to discuss
these things as we are doing now. When you understand that
this is something good and that it makes sense, then
naturally you'll bring into your daily life. If you like
this concept, then you will make decisions on the basis of
this concept. If you are in doubt, if you think it's wrong
or if you think it's going to cost too much money, then,
when you are faced with a decision, you'll reject that path
and take the old path, which hasn't worked very well. If you
understand what's right, you'll automatically do what's
right. If you understand, for instance, that cheating a
vaisnava is not good, then there is no question of your
cheating a vaisnava. If you are convinced of that, then no
matter what opportunity arises, no matter how foolish the
other party is, how easy it is to cheat him or how much you
could gain by cheating them; you will not do it.

     Whether you know it or not, you are now being
programmed. It's been happening since the day we walked in
the temple. We're being programmed by Srila Prabhupada. He
gave us the perfect Krsna-conscious program from the ancient
Vedic culture, from Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. He
placed that into our heads and we, his disciples, have
willingly accepted that and are moving forward under his
direction. Similarly, the principles that we are discussing
here are mentioned everywhere in Prabhupada's books; there
is nothing new about them; but now we are agreeing to accept
these principles in our lives and to make decisions based
upon them. From now on we are going to make the concerns and
needs of the individual prominent. We want to do this in
such a way that we can satisfy the individuals within this
society and still maintain the society. If required, we are
prepared to make adjustments in the society, so that the
individuals can continue, because bringing back individuals
is our business, not maintaining institutions. Institutions
are not our business. Our business is to bring people back
to Godhead. The institution is a means to achieve that end,
and as long the institution serves that end, it is to be
accepted; but if the institution hinders that, it is to be
adjusted. Just like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur
told Srila Prabhupada, and Prabhupada in turn told me,in the
exact same context. After the Bagh bazaar temple was built
in Calcutta, devotees started fighting over who would occupy
which room and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada said, "Even
while I am here on this planet they are fighting over these
material things, therefore I wish to sell the marble in this
temple and print books." That is the real preaching. He gave
us to understand that the institution is not as important as
the preaching mission. This is called Bhagavata viddhi. If
somehow the Bhagavata viddhi is hampered, whatever else we
might do, there will be no success. We might be able to
achieve great opulence, what about love of God? We have to
judge ourselves on the basis of how successful we are in
creating lovers of god. That's the real criteria of success.

For example, we consider this place, Abentheuer. It is
working as a preaching place; many people here are coming
for seminars. The rooms are all booked up all the time. All
of you have come for this seminar. The GBC body will come
here for this seminar. Because it is functioning as a
valuable center for Krsna consciousness in Germany, it makes
sense. If it were just a place where some devotees could
live nicely, without doing any preaching, what would be the
use? Do you know what I’m saying? We have to keep the horse
in front of the cart. The preaching mission first,
everything else second. Therefore, if you are a manager, you
have to start thinking first in terms of the individual
needs and only after that about the doors and the windows.
This is pretty revolutionary, but I guarantee that if you
satisfy the needs of the individuals, all the doors and
windows will work properly, because they naturally will get
fixed by those inspired to do so. I have often heard many of
my godbrothers and godsisters throughout world that ISKCON
has become so institutionalized. When they joined, it was
not an institution. It was a family, but now it has become
institutionalized and impersonal. The people within the
society DO count more than the institution. An institution
without people is just a bunch of bricks and statutes,
whereas an institution made of people, who value the
association that the institution offers, will remain strong
for a long period of time. Srila Prabhupada in his lifetime,
did a lot to create the institution. He built temples and he
gave loans for other temples to be created. He encouraged
the expansion of projects, but never at the cost of the
people. That was Srila Prabhupada's wonderful gift to
ISKCON, that he could give an institution that was personal,
where people counted, where the devotees counted. I think we
wondered away from that a little bit and in those places
where that has happened, devotees are very dissatisfied.
Where they ARE dissatisfied like that, the solution is, to
bring things back to personalism, where people count more
than the bricks. The bricks count too, but people are more
important than bricks. Bricks you can replace without
trouble, people you cannot. Would anybody like to discuss
this further?

Amavasya: I don't want to bother with this topic too much,
but I have always had it in my head, that this also has
something to do with the women`s position. We made mistakes
faults in this regard. We institutionalized them: "The Women
Issue" - in the back or by the side, or something like this.
Without considering the needs of the PERSONS in the female
bodies. If we start to re- establish the situation of women,
as it was in Prabhupada's time, I think it would be a good
start to bring back this feeling of that everybody is a
person and not the body. This will help us to start.

Harikesa Swami: Yes, but there is also great myth as far as
the standard during Prabhupada's times. There were actually
quite a few different standards concerning behavior of the
women.

Amavasya: Yes, ok, I'm speaking about this letter from
Jyotimayi dd.

Harikesa SwamI: Right. She was in France, so she is writing
about what was existing in France.

Amavasya: But the same is true for America, in the
beginning.

Harikesa Swami: In the beginning? In the beginning all the
men and women were mixed together, you want that?

Amavasya: And then side by side. 

Harikesa Swami: Side by side?

Amavasya: Yes, I heard , I was not there, I heard this.

Harikesa Swami: I was in India during that time, where
Prabhupada personally was and the ladies were in the back a
lot of times.

Amavasya: Yes, in India it is always something else.

Harikesa Swami: Yes. I don't want to argue your point. I
think you are right. The fact is that women are 50% of the
world, or more, and we have to talk about their needs. Of
course not all women's needs are the same. For example
Urmila dd came to Copenhagen and was very upset that the
women were standing in the back. So I agreed, no problem,
let the women stand on the side. The women themselves then
asked who is this mataji and why should she come in here and
start dictating where people should stand? They said that
they wanted to stand where they had always stood. I
explained to them that someone in the future may feel
uncomfortable standing in the back and therefore they should
begin standing on the side. So there is no problem that the
women stand on the side, there is no problem that women take
up managerial roles. There is no problem that the women do
puja. Only on the farm it wasn't allowed, but it should be
allowed there too. Practically speaking, I have no problem
whatsoever with what you're saying, and we can immediately
do, that's not the problem. The whole thing about it being
an issue is an illusion. The problem is that we have to deal
with the ladies' needs. That's not just to stand of the
right side or the left of the temple room. The ladies' needs
are not whether they can do puja or not. These are not the
ladies' needs. The ladies needs are they should be
protected, they should feel respected and they should feel
that they are valuable parts of the society. I discussed
this somewhat in this conversation with Isani and Visvadeva,
that a lot of the young ladies, especially the unmarried
ladies, are a huge problem for the management. This is
something that has to be very seriously addressed. Having
unmarried ladies in the family is non-Vedic, but it is not
ISKCON's duty to get ladies married. We have to
simultaneously deal with these two things. This point you
haven't mentioned, but it has to be brought up. We can't
have the women creating surrogate husbands, surrogate
fathers, surrogate lovers. You know what I'm saying ? So
what do you have to say about that?

Amavasya: I would like to speak about the needs of the
devotees who are in women's bodies. These are two different
topics. Women in general need protection, they need a
husband,..

Harikesa Swami: They need a father, they need an older
son...

Amavasya: Yes, all these things you were talking about with
Isani and Visvadeva. My point is to see the women as 50 % of
the devotees and take care of their needs. This example from
Copenhagen is very good, because I don't mean that the men
are guilty for the situation. The whole thing is, from my
understanding, also like subtle sex. Why are the men
standing on one side in Copenhagen and the other side is
empty. And the ladies are standing behind the men.

Harikesa Swami: That's because I told the men to stand on
one side, so that the ladies can have half the temple room,
but they don't want it.

Amavasya: I know, because they are also attached to be in
this situation, because they learned that this means they
are humble, they are submissive, they are in a lower
position than men in general, although they have nothing to
do with men they are not married with. This is a
misconception and they are in.

Harikesa Swami: They might argue that's our sastra and a
lot of those point's that you just said don't exist. They
might say, that in the sastra there are many points
explaining how ladies are less intelligent.

Amavasya: Yes, but there it's also explained how sudras are
less intelligent, but the sudras are also not standing in
the back.

Harikesa Swami: Sudras don't have to stand in the back, for
according to the smartas sudras shouldn't even come in the
temple room.

Amavasya: Yes, we have a lot of sudras in the temple so we
should see them according to daivi varnasrama, where there
are devotees side by side.

Harikesa Swami: Therefore I said they could stand on the
side.

Amavasya: They must stand on the side, so that they learn
they are not merely women. This is not chastity to stand
behind men they have nothing to do with. So we should teach
them...

Padmanabha: I'm not going to stand in the front or on the
side. I have very sensitive ears, if I have to stand in the
front, I'm finished, I have to stand in the back. You can't
dictate to people where there have to stand, on the basis of
sex or whatever else. I'm not going to stand in front, I
can't stand it.

Amavasya: I would like to stand in the back of the women,
but standing behind the men is completely ridiculous.

Harikesa Swami: She is making ..

Padmanabha: She is making a law.

Harikesa Swami: No, she is making a principle here. Standing
in the back is not the problem, because half the women are
standing in the back anyway. Only half can stand in the
front, then the other half is in the back. So the standing
in the back is not the problem, the point is that a women is
a spirit soul, she is a devotee, a vaisnavi, she should be
respected as a vaisnavi and allowed to have half the temple
room, because they're half the sky, as they say in China.
Women hold up half the sky. I don't object to that.

Amavasya: Yes, but I also think it's not only not good, but
it's bad, because it maintains this misconception.

Harikesa Swami: How do you know what their conception is?

Amavasya: I was speaking with them.

Harikesa SwamI: What did they say about their conception?

Amavasya: They are women. This is their humility to be in
this subordinate position, like the wife is to the husband,
but this is not their husband, who is standing in front of
them. They're putting themselves in the position of the
wife, and I think this is really...

Sacinandana Swami: Our movement has painted a certain
picture of the women and there is a commonly understood
picture of the women and the women, in order to be good
women, without really considering anything like to take up
this role, which is offered by the society to be good girls
in this case...

Amavasya: Yes.

Sacinandana Swami: ...for instance, if you make the picture
that the best devotees in the world are the ones who wear a
very rosy type of dhoti, or blue dhoti, and any group make
this, then those who want to confound to the standard of the
groups, will all color their dhoti blue. I remember in
previous times, the good, strong devotees had to have an
earring on the right ear and many did that. A golden
earring, because you were a strong person if you had a
golden earring. Here ISKCON has produced a certain picture
of what a good girl should be, submissive, chaste and in the
back and so on, and in order to conform and get the
recognition of men, women accept this role and therefore
they don't want to change anything. This is what you are
saying, isn't it?

Amavasya: I mean they are mixing two things: wife and women.
Being a female devotee and being a wife are two different
positions, but we mixed this up in ISKCON: that we have to
be submissive to ALL men, but THIS is unchaste. I only have
to be submissive to my husband, if I can, but not to some
strange man. So standing behind some other man, is unchaste
in my under- standing. Women are being put in that unchaste
position.

Harikesa Swami: That's a western mentality. In India it's
quite different.

Amavasya: In India, they are not in the temples.

Harikesa Swami: Who?

Amavasya: The ladies.

Harikesa Swami: Of course they are...

Amavasya: They are only visiting with their husbands,
together go to the deities...

Harikesa Swami: Not even only with their husbands, they go
by the millions to the temples, widows and all kind of
ladies go to India to the temple.

Amavasya: And they stand in the back? I saw them....

Harikesa Swami: No, they push over the men and stand in the
front.

Amavasya: Yes, and before them give dandavats.

Harikesa Swami: But you don't find the women acting strongly
towards men. Except for their enthusiasm to see the deity,
they are very humble and submissive.

Amavasya: But they can do this, because they are protected.

Harikesa Swami: But even if they are not protected, that's
their culture. It's not your culture. That's actually..

Amavasya: But it would be nice also for us, because we have
also female nature and this is... we would also like to be
protected and may be also chaste or shy, but we could not do
it.

Harikesa Swami: Shyness is the women's wealth.

Amavasya: Yes, but we couldn't do it, because unprotected we
cannot stay shy and humble.

Padmanabha: I think respect is the main problem here;
standing here or there is not the point. What's important is
to feel respected. I think it's all just a question of
preaching. We know that women have been badly treated over
the years, but sudras have also been badly treated in our
movement, they don't get what they need. The vaisyas are
considered second class citizens because they "only" make
business and have to contribute everything so they have no
chance to increase their business. The ksatriyas have to
manage without any means of control and nobody listens to
the brahmanas. No one in the movement is treated properly.
We just have to change the whole preaching, not just the
about women. Everyone is suffering, because it doesn't work
yet.

Amavasya: Somewhere we have to start.

Padmanabha: So we start with the preaching, we explain it.
The whole thing is based on information, it has to get out.
You figure out what's your quality, and you act like this.
You deal with other people according to their quality and
then you'll be happy. That's the only way it'll work.

Harikesa Swami: You understood what he said? You agree with
that? There is no "women issue".

Amavasya: Devotee issue.

Harikesa Swami: Devotee issue. We all have the same problem.

Amavasya: I know.

Caksu: I'm not so sure if everyone understands what
protection of women means. Obviously there are different
opinions now about protection. May be it would be
interesting to speak what is actually protection.

Amavasya: Maybe someone can do me the favor of explaining
once what kind of protection one can feel standing in the
back of the man and...

Harikesa Swami: No, forget about the standing, it's....

Amavasya: I mean only as an example...

Harikesa Swami: No, give a better example, this has nothing
to do with protection.

Amavasya: Oh, but we were always told that this is a kind
of protection.

Harikesa Swami: Forget it. Talk about real protection. What
will make you feel protected?

Amavasya: It would make me feel protected if there are men
who take care that we have space to see the deities, that we
...

Harikesa swami: We already said that you have half the
temple room.

Amavasya: Yes, we have half the temple room, but then the
big men come every festival and stand before us and nobody
comes and moves them away...

Harikesa Swami: That's not true. The last festival when I
was there and they did it, I moved them away.

Amavasya: When YOU were there, yes. But also on other
occasions, I could give you names. They always stand in
front of us, nobody cares.

Harikesa Swami: OK, you guys, next time there is a festival
and some big man is standing in front of the women, you guys
pull them away, ok? But I already said this: that there has
to be someone to move them away, in that meeting in
Heidelberg. Didn't I make that very same point? So what
happened?

Hariballabha: The biggest offenders were those who were
supposed help.

Amavasya: Yes, exactly the same men.

Harikesa Swami: It's a question of respect. They were going
to help manage the festival for the women. Something went
wrong, and they are blaming Caksu, Jiva, Dasavatara and
Diviratha. So, were you guys standing in front of the
ladies?

Diviratha: I wasn't at the festival.

Caksu: I didn't go to one deity greeting, I didn't have the
time.

Harikesa swami: Who are the men who were standing in front
of you?

Amavasya: Dasavatara, always, and Diviratha always on the
corner.

Harikesa Swami: So are you willing to stand away?

Dasavatara: I won't be there at all this time, no big
problem.

Dasavatara: But I saw last time, for example, at Nrsimha
Caturdasi, that you (Sri Visnupada) wanted to make
dandavats, but there was no room for you to do so, because
the ladies insist on their spot. So I was there to try to
take away the kids so that you could pay your obeisances,
and after I did this, I could not disappear into the air. I
had to stand somewhere. So I stood next to you, which was
unfortunate, but I won't do it again.

Amavasya: Haribol!

Madanalasa: Some of us women don't mind to stay in the
back. I, myself, never considered this to be a disturbance.
When I want to see the Deities, I have plenty of
opportunity, but I think the attitude of some of the men
against the women is definitely a disturbance.

Ayati: It's also been a suggestion that the ladies have
their own Deity greeting And it came from the men, not from
the women, so they should not complain so much.

Hariballabha: It was Dasavatara who made this suggestion.

Harikesa Swami: Is there something wrong with that?

Hariballabha: No, it was very nice.

Harikesa Swami: You liked it?

Hariballabha: Yes, I liked it. It was perfect.

Harikesa Swami: So we should continue to do that.

Hariballabha: Yes.

Harikesa Swami: You (Amavasya) don't like that it?

Amavasya: No, but that's only my personal opinion and that's
not so important.

Harikesa Swami: Very good that you said that. Yes.

Narayani: I was just speaking with some seminar guests who
were here last weekend, and they also told me that they are
a little bit frustrated, because they see these problems
here in our temple. For example, during the tulasi-puja the
women have no opportunity to circumambulate tulasi.

Harikesa Swami: You don't have two tulsis?

Kaivalya dayini: For some weeks we only had one.

Harikesa Swami: Oh, for a few weeks you only had one.

Kaivalya dayini: Now we have two.

Narayani: But we always have to fight for these things.
Sometimes one is loses one's tolerance.

Harikesa Swami: What do you have to fight for, Tulasis?

Narayani: Not only that: for having the same rights. It's
always a fight.

Amavasya: Lack of protection. And that means we have to do
it for ourselves and that looks strange. If we want to have
space, or time to do something, or to bathe the deity or to
offer flowers. We always have to do it for ourselves and, as
you said, if women fight, they become ugly. Some men should
do it for us. But they have to know our needs, otherwise
they can't do.

Harikesa Swami: That's what husbands are for. 

Amavasya: Yes, but when the husbands try to do something,
they are called the henpecked.

Harikesa Swami: That they may have been, but actually they
probably were doing a good job. Doing the right thing. So,
when you are in a certain situation and you are not being
properly taken care of, let your good husbands make the
attempt to change the situation. That would be the best for
you. Let's say you are here in the temple you can go to
Visvadeva and he can change the situation, is it?

Visvadeva: I have my limits but I can try.

Harikesa Swami: I don't understand what's so difficult about
this, I don't understand it. 

Visvadeva: Many times it is really a kind of a technical
problem, not a kind of attitude...

Harikesa Swami: Yes, but if you want to do something, it can
happen. Why can't all the men leaders understand that the
ladies need certain things and that they should have them.

Visvadeva: I am hearing now for the first time that there
was a problem with tulasi, but we have problems with space
in general. So we think about it, but sometimes...

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I sense a general lack of clarity in
the social behavior between matajis and brahmacaries. It's a
question of training asramas. I hear too many times
complaints of young matajis and brahmacaries about what they
should do and not do. We need some very clear, strong
guidelines, so that everyone knows exactly how to behave.
The deeper solution lies in training, how to properly
associate and co-operate with the opposite sex. Among
different bhakta leaders I see a different understanding and
attitude. There is no unified understanding. Thus there must
be irritation, misunderstanding and many false expectations.

Sacinandana Swami: The different types of communities
usually have a community council that supplies both,
education, and then also helps the members to attain certain
ends. I would suggest that we build a council of mature men
and women, who publish may be a simple guideline, like a
little booklet, like Maharaja says supplies some education
what should be the attitude, equality on one side, that all
the women and the men have equal facilities, but at the same
time we obviously play certain roles, like we don't intermix
so much and so on and so forth. They supply some education,
and they also say what should practically be changed and
then, if this comes out of such a council, it will be
respected by the rest of the community, or the rest of the
devotees, and then when some disturbances come up, then the
council can be informed and they become aware and they will
try to solve it. I feel that this would be a very nice and
practical way to approach it.

May I just express it shortly. I feel we should form a
council of both and women who are mature, and they should
talk about what should be the roles of men and women and how
they should interact also in the critical areas where there
is some unrest and dissatisfaction now. And then they should
publish this and they should see for instance at festivals
or in temples that everything goes smoothly. Because I think
it is already clear, you have said that there is no question
that equal facilities in devotional service should be given.
After this is already clear, we can just educate the
devotees what this means in the specific areas of human
interaction and then have some people, devotees who take
care that these guidelines are followed and if it is not
followed, instead of fighting on the field, or making some
unrest on the field, the devotees who are concerned just
report the cases back to the council and they talk about it
and then make good solutions. I think it would be very
practical in our German yatra to have such a group, a
working group who deals with the problems and gives
solutions to the problems, and who also provide some
general, basic education.

Harikesa Swami: I would rather not do that, as the GBC,
since we are talking more of a zonal kind of a thing here.
What I would rather do is just tell the temple presidents
what to do and they should arrange it. Why do we need a
council? It is very simple. Like if there is a problem here
in Abentheuer, Visvadeva should correct it. If there is a
problem on the farm, Jiva das should correct it. If there is
a problem in Wiesbaden, Paramatma das should correct it. If
there is a problem in Berlin, Mahadeva das should correct
it. If there is a problem in Hamburg you should correct it.
It's very simple. What do we need a council for? It's just
common sense. These things are just common sense. We don't
need to go into the sastra and start looking up references
and quotes.

Sacinandana Swami: But why is it not worked so well in the
past?

Harikesa Swami: It's just the question of leaders
understanding their role, their job. 

Sacinandana Swami: I would be happy if it would work like
this.

Harikesa Swami: A council is not going to work because if
the leader doesn't want to do it he won't. If the leader
wants to do it, he will, whether the council tells him or
not.

Sacinandana Swami: All right. Yes.

Padmanabha dasa: I tried to summarize what I think is the
basic problem in this connection. If I have two minutes I
can read it.

Harikesa Swami: Please.

Padmanabha dasa: When I was 12 years old and was attached to
some girl, I didn't want anyone to know it. In order to
cover up my feelings (my lust) I used to do stupid things;
pull her hair, steal her book or throw a snowball in her
face. In this way everyone was to understand that I'm not
attached. For twelve-year-old boys this is normal behavior;
but I see men in this movement 30 or 40 years old who are
still doing this. They are still thinking that women are
basically here for sense gratification, but that sense
gratification is not allowed. I don't want anyone to know
that I'm attached; so I simply beat up the women. Not
physically of course, but mentally I will beat them up.
That's allowed. If they complain, who will listen? Everyone
knows that women are maya, or even if they are trying to be
devotees, they're mental. This is an interesting word -
mental. What does it mean? This word belongs to a list of
ISKCON words, which don't have to have a specific meaning -
it's therefore a good mayavadi word. Women are mental and
therefore we don't have any particular responsibility toward
them. I will suggest a following definition for mental:

Mental means that someone is not yet satisfied in his or her
position and doesn't know how to improve that situation.

Now, with this definition I will agree that most of the
women in this movement are mental; but I will also maintain
that most of the men in this movement are mental. In other
words, I'm saying that anyone who is not properly situated
must be mental. So what is the proper situation for a woman?

Here we can expect many men to be thinking mostly in terms
of chastity, humility, service to the husband and guru etc.
Do you see how one-sided this is? These are the
responsibilities of a woman; but responsibilities are only
half of the picture. What else does the Veda say? Women must
be protected and respected. What is the actual situation in
ISKCON? Women fulfill basically two functions in our
society. First, they take over the role of the second-class
citizen. Every material society has its second class
citizens. They are necessary for me because I, in my
weakness, require someone who is lower than me. I feel
better than someone and that satisfies my foolish pride.
"But the sastra says that women as less intelligent," says
the fanatic. So how do we understand this statement? First
of all no living entity is less intelligent. The monkey has
so much intelligence for getting his banana, that if you
have to compete with him on that level you will starve to
death. The statement that women are less intelligent refers
only to the ability to differentiate between matter and
spirit. It obviously doesn't mean that she cannot run a
business, manage a project, preach Krsna consciousness or
anything else.

The second role played by the women in our movement is that
of the sense object. Of course I'm not allowed to touch, but
I can play all the other games, and enjoy on the so-called
subtle level. This way I can still enjoy a little or even
get rid of my frustration (para-dukha-sukhi). Especially
non-married women are the best targets, because no one will
dare defend them out of fear of loosing his reputation.

So, respect and protection don't exist for the woman in
ISKCON. Therefore they are frustrated, therefore they are
mental. Just as mental as the sudra who has to make business
or the vaisya who has to manage, etc.

Now what about the women's-libers. That IS actually a
problem, because it is the false solution. False solutions
either create new problems or make the old one's worse. The
fanatic will say that women shouldn't have any position at
all because it isn't Vedic; but I answer, it's also not
Vedic to send the ladies out on SKP, it's not Vedic to have
five ladies from different families living in the same room
and the main point here anyway is that we want to engage
people according to their qualities - that's Vedic. Now, I
want to be properly understood here when I use this term
women's-libers. I want to differentiate between a women who
is given some special responsibility, maybe even a title,
because she has the appropriate qualities, and the woman who
is pushing for some position, thinking that by having some
position (similar to the men) she will become happy. No
woman will be happy in this movement until she feels
respected and protected and no woman (or man) will feel
happy having a position for which she is not qualified.
These are eternal principles. I think that some devotees
don't believe that the VEDA is eternal. The Veda gives rules
for material world, but the principles are eternal.
therefore we can profit by accepting them. A woman cannot be
satisfied until she is respected and protected. Now here
there are three relevant quotes from MANU SAMHITA.

3:57 If the women of the family are miserable, the family is
soon destroyed,

3:56 The deities take delight in places where women are
respected, but where women are not respected, all rituals
are fruitless.

3:58 Places that are cursed by women who not been have been
treated with due reverence, are destroyed as if struck down
with witchcraft.

Most of the managers I had served with over the years have
certainly earned themselves a woman's curse. Actually it's a
wonder that there are ANY projects left in ISKCON. My point
here is that, not only are we neglecting these two
responsibilities toward women (respect and protection) but
we are also actually tearing down the whole movement... -
"all rituals are fruitless" means no love of God.

Just one more point in this connection. It was at one time
standard procedure in Germany and Switzerland (and may still
be popular) to separate married couples as much as possible,
sending the man in one direction and the lady in the other
direction for their services. MANU says separation from the
husband is one of the causes of destruction of women. He
puts this in the same class as drinking alcohol. It seems
that our managing techniques have been keeping us in the
DARK AGES. It's no wonder that the general population
doesn't yet take us seriously.

I have one more thing in this connection. We see very often
these games. Kitchen is a great place for games between
brahmacaris and unmarried women. Here I would say in 99,99%
the man is guilty partner. Because here we come to the point
of who has more intelligence. As soon as anything starts to
happen in this direction she's being unprotected, has no one
to trust, she has to play that game. But he because he has
the superior intelligence he should be able to control that
situation. But generally we see that ladies are used as the
excuses. Something funny happens in the kitchen and yes just
these lusty matajis. So therefore they are frustrated and
... and therefore we are falling apart as a movement. So I
think this is one of the main problems in the whole thing.
Just understand Manu samhita, that's what you said in the
beginning. After Bhagavad-gita the most practical book I've
ever read.

Harikesa Swami: Anyone wants to talk about what he has just
said? 

Padmanabha dasa: Just like what you said, there is no need
for a committee. Just you have to know what the principles
are.

Hariballabha dd: I want to know what do you think about what
he said?

Sri Visnupada: I've had this paper for a long time so I've
read it many weeks ago. I thought that it was a very good
paper. I thought of all the papers I received outside from
the ones from Suhotra Swami and Drutakarma Prabhu and
Bhurijana das and Sacinandana Swami this was the best paper
because he is talking something which I think is on our
level of understanding. That we have to understand that we
are dealing here with people. When I hear about the problems
of women, you may not believe this, but I think, "Well I've
got the same problem." Maybe I don't have to stand in the
back, but as far as being not respected in certain places
and as far as being dealt with improperly, as far as being
used improperly, engaged improperly I feel the same way. The
point he brought up in his paper (the women thing was only
one sixth of his whole paper) is that we have this problem
with all the devotees. Now the temple presidents have the
respon- sibility to make sure that all people live in an
atmosphere of respect. If we have to use the women as an
example, that's OK, but it's equally applicable to men as
well. I've seen how temple presidents or temple commanders
or sankirtan leaders don't respect devotees for what they
are. They don't understand that they are valuable parts of
Krsna and they can do valuable work. Especially the ladies.
I go out of my way, you ladies may know, when I go for my
walk or I go anywhere here, if I see any of you I
immediately stop and ask how are you, how are you doing,
what's happening - the whole thing. Because I am concerned.
Because I know you are not getting proper treatment from
others, so I go out of my way to make sure that I give it as
best as I can. So I think that the leaders here have to
understand this point very clearly that it's their
responsibility to protect people. And the whole question
started with Caksu asking what is protection. And then
Amavasya Devi jumped on it and gave out the women issue. But
actually it's a point that all temple presidents should
understand about all devotees. For example, when you see a
brahmacari in the kitchen who is not dealing properly with
the ladies - first of all a good manager never puts
brahmacaris and brahmacarinis in the same kitchen. No good
manager mixes them either on the altar or in the kitchen.
This is Prabhupada's principle. Do not mix unmarried men and
women in the kitchen. These are the places where most fall
downs occur. It's like butter and fire, there is nothing
much you can do about it. Best is that you have all ladies
or all men, or householders doing the worship together. Even
Prabhupada didn't like householders doing it together on the
altar, because of the possibility of illicit sex connection.
He was so strict about this business. He didn't mind at all
ladies doing Deity worship. He did not mind any kind of men
doing the Deity worship just as long they were brahminically
qualified. Prabhupada always used to say, "Man is good.
Woman is good. Combination is bad." And that's what we are
talking about here. The combination of men and women. We are
not talking about just women. Therefore I don't like hearing
about women issue. Because it's not an issue. It's not a
problem of women. Women are fine. Men are fine. Combination
is bad. And that's what we are talking about. The
combination of men and women. And when I did that paper with
Isani and Visvadeva Prabhu I was talking about that
combination. That the unmarried woman is using a temple
president as a surrogate husband, surrogate lover, surrogate
father. Thus everything is getting mental. I agree with his
definition of mental. It's great. It should be in the
dictionary. And everybody is mental that way. The man is
also mental because he is not married. And he knows he
should be married. But he is not getting married because he
wants to remain somehow or other glorious as a brahmacari.
Bhurijana Prabhu wrote a nice paper which is all in your
stack there. About the fact that most will become grhasthas.
But because they are doing in such a rough and uncultured
way it doesn't work very well. We have to train (as
Bhaktivaibhava Swami is always saying). We have to train the
brahmacaries to go into the grhastha asram in a nice way.
And the ladies also have to be understood so they can also
enter it in a nice way where there is not a question of
sexual relationship in our society. Similarly there should
not be any of these business in a temple room, neither in
the Deity Room nor in the kitchen. There should be strict
separation. And it should not be that only men can do it and
women can't do it. Women can also do puja. In fact they do
the puja a lot better than the men because they know how to
decorate the Deity very nicely. I've seen that when it comes
to decorating the Deity like in Korsnas our girl pujari
there she does a much better job that the men ever did. And
I appreciate it so much more. So this is the problem that
the leader should address. The combination of men and women.
That is the problem. Not the women are a problem or the men
are a problem but the combination is a problem. And that's
combination becomes a problem in a temple room when the
women are not given their place automatically. If they are
not given their place automatically that means some
interaction has to be there between men and women for women
to get their place that they want or for men to take over
the women's place that's another interaction we don't want.
We don't want men taking over the women's place, we don't
want women having to fight for their place. All temple
leaders should know, must know, must make sure that the
women get their half of the temple automatically. There
should be no question of it. Even when I wanted to pay my
dandavats I was willing to adjust that and just pay the
regular normal five point obeisances because I saw what was
happening. Actually I didn't at all like what you
(Dasavatara das) were doing. Because I saw that it was going
to cause a big agitation. And then Hariballabha was moving
all the girls back and then I was saying, "This is so
ridiculous. Just because I've got to pay dandavats all these
people have to move and crush and get disturbed." I hated
the whole thing. I wanted to just pay quick obeisances get
up again quick and get out of the way. That's how I feel in
the festivals. If I have to feel that I am so important that
a hundred people have to be crushed because of me I rather
not come into the temple room. A lot of the times I don't
come in because I can't stand what happens when I do. It's a
very big disturbance to me. I would rather see everybody
happy and peaceful and not making such endeavor for me.
Please remember this for the future, in case it ever happens
again.

So the ladies must have their place. We should have a rope.
We had a rope last time. That rope should be absolute. We
are doing this also in a big Mayapur temple - absolute
separation. It should be there for every festival. And as
far as prasadam either the ladies and the children get fed
first or they get fed at the same time. NEVER afterwards.
That we decided also in that meeting. There is no question
of the ladies getting fed afterwards. Why should the men eat
before the ladies. It's ridiculous. The ladies should get
fed first. Especially if they eat three times more than men.
It will take them longer. So they should get fed first. So
these points are very important. And especially this thing
about pulling the hair and throwing the snow ball in the
face and all these things I see it all the time. I've been
seeing the same thing all the time. I disgusts me
completely. But I don't know what to do about it, I didn't
know what to do about it. And I think what we should do
about it is to talk about it. I wrote that letter about the
macho brahmacaris if you remember. About how ridiculous it
was that you are going to prove that you are big brahmacari
with hair in your chest by showing how superior you are to
women. That's ridiculous. Show how superior you are to
somebody else. Some other man who is as strong as you are.
Show your superiority in that way. Don't show your
superiority to women. That's ridiculous. Or children. That
happened in the gurukula. The big strong man showing how
superior he is by beating children in the face with his
fist. That doesn't show you are superior. It shows that you
are the lowest class candala or lower. It doesn't show your
superiority. It shows your inferiority. So similarly in
dealing with ladies. There should be respectful dealings.
It's very, very important - respect. You have to respect
them as vaisnavis. They must be respected as vaisnavis. And
they must be given their own facility to do those things
that they want to do. Just like you want to do. Whatever you
want to do, you should understand they also want to do. You
want to worship Tulasi, they want to worship Tulasi. You
want to see the Deities, they want to see the Deities.
That's what we are in this movement for. So I do agree with
what he said. Maybe not necessarily the way he said it, but
some of the things I would have said in another way. I think
I just did. Protection means you have to see other person's
pain in a same way you were feeling pain. Because I feel
pain when I am pinched another person would feel pain when
they are pinched. Similarly a lady feels as much pain as the
man or more if they are being put into a painful situations.
Therefore the leader, the president or the leaders must make
sure that they are as much protected as the men. And that
all men and all women are protected. However I insist on
this point that unmarried ladies cannot make the temple
presidents surrogate husbands, surrogate fathers or
surrogate sons. That must not happen. Because that's again
the illicit connection between men and women that we have to
stop. Is what I said OK?

Devotee: Perfect.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: So your point is that the leaders or
the temple presidents should ... know these points.

Harikesa Swami: They should hear these points. I'm telling
the points right now and this meeting should be transcribed.
Send it out... And it must be acted upon by the presidents.
This is not the question of maybe or maybe not. It must be
acted out by the presidents. This is the training.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I feel there might be much more
points...

Harikesa Swami: There are many more points. And therefore
you will write a book on how to train various aspects of
this movement and you can present that book and we'll give
it to all the temple presidents and all the sankirtan
leaders and all the bhakta trainers and it will be very
nice. Right?

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: Is this an instruction?

Harikesa Swami: It's my humble plea. I'm telling the same
thing to everybody. I told him to write paper, I told
Suhotra Swami to write paper. You've got to write a paper.
You've been talking this training of people for so many
years. Now do it! If you want you can cooperate with
somebody else to do it, but get it together and write this
training.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: Perhaps Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja.

Harikesa Swami: Sure. Go to Mayapur. Stay there for two
months and just write. 

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: That will be ecstatic. 

Harikesa Swami: Everybody has to participate. We have to
write. Writing is very important. We have to write these
things down. At least we have to speak these things and have
them presented and the transcripts should be given out to
others. But don't give out transcripts which are not edited,
because sometimes you say things when you are speaking,
which you hate to see in print. So we have to be very
careful about these transcripts. I was very upset last time
that unedited transcripts were distributed. So that's the
way it should be done. We don't want unedited transcripts
going around. We don't want these tapes going around, we
don't want the video tapes going around. We want these
things to be properly presented and then go out.

Arcana dd: I would also say that it is not only the thing of
responsibility of the temple presidents but also of
preaching. Because often the points are misunderstood. For
example Srila Prabhupada said so often that the women are
less intelligent, it's only to materialistic women. I think
often this is misunderstood. Because my experience was often
after lectures that many had really dis- criminating
attitude...

Harikesa Swami: Diving into this point that women are less
intelligent than men is subtle sex desire. Again pulling the
hair. As far as I am concerned I have avoided saying that
even though I know Prabhupada has said it and I've heard it
from him directly personally. I know a lot more things he
said which I never tell you, simply because we've got to
keep peace in this society. I feel that the point should be
dropped. It doesn't work it in western society - unless you
are Srila Prabhupada.

Sacinandana Swami: Just to support it. I remember Prabhupada
preached to women reporters who came to Chicago ...

Harikesa Swami: I was there... There was one woman reporter
and all of her servants were men. So they did this on
purpose. They sent a woman to make an interview and to lead
the whole thing and one woman was the producer and then all
the lighting men and the sound men and the camera men were
all running around on the order of this woman. So they were
trying to show Srila Prabhupada that actually he doesn't
know what he is talking about. Srila Prabhupada stuck to the
point. 32 ounces brain. And then she said, "Where have you
gotten this information from?" He said from Professor
Urquhart. And then she said, "When was this?" He said, "Well
1918." She said, "Oh, now I understand everything." She was
perfectly happy. And then the next day when the news came on
the newscaster was a man. And he loved what Prabhupada said.

Sacinandana Swami: Satsvarupa Maharaja says, "But what when
the women become agitated when they hear this, Srila
Prabhupada." Then Srila Prabhupada said, "Then we should not
talk about this. We should just chant Hare Krsna." Yes, the
point can be dropped.

Harikesa Swami: I haven't made this point in a lecture... I
don't ever making a point like this in a lecture, maybe I
did once or something I don't remember. And I don't feel
that anything is lacking.

Padmanabha dasa: You said one time like this as I just
quoted. That the difference comes in this one specific area
- differentiating between spirit and matter. And this was in
1986.

Harikesa Swami: OK. So I said that.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I found another interesting statement.
Srila Prabhupada explained in one purport referring to this
softness of heart. Because of the soft heart they tend to
take the wrong decisions. And I understood that could also
mean - less intelligent because of the soft heart.

Harikesa Swami: The soft heart is good. That's what you like
your mother for. 

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: Just like Draupadi and Asvatthama. 

Harikesa Swami: The Bhagavatam doesn't criticize Draupadi
for what she said. Neither did Krsna.

Amavasya dd: I also think that less intelligent means like
also sudras and vaisyas. 99% of the population. Less
intelligent also means that one depends on other persons.
The brahmana does not depend on any other person because
then his intelligence will not work so nicely. But if we
depend fully on Krsna we can become intelligent too. So in
this way I think less intelligent means that you cannot be
independent.

But my point is also that you cannot force people, women in
that position and then expect that they will be happy. If
you give them the feeling that you really protect them, then
they will accept and they will see, "In this position I will
perfectly right." Then we will have no problems with "less
intelligent". What we cannot accept is that people have
their own selfish interest by putting us down. Maybe in a
few generations, the women will take up this role again and
we cannot force them.

Padmanabha dasa: But on the other hand we know the
philosophy, we know the goal of life, and it IS possible for
me to accept my responsibilities with minimum facilities and
rights. It's not that we have to wait for the structure to
come. Each individual person has to make his own decision,
"OK, even if the other people don't treat me properly I will
still going to do my duty. I'm still going to act properly.
I have to follow my dharma." It can happen. It could happen
tomorrow that enough people will start acting properly, that
ISKCON suddenly has varnasrama system where everybody is
thinking this will make me happy, why don't I just do it.
Why do I have to wait for the leaders."

Harikesa Swami: Exactly. That's right. His paper is very
good. You should read it. I liked especially the point about
pretending. I can't pretend anymore in varnasrama. I can't
pretend to be what I am not. I liked that point.

Visvadeva dasa: I still ask. Because I understand that the
leaders should give this kind of protection, there should be
same rights in the temple room, there should be some kind of
arrangement that the women should not work in the kitchen
with brahmacaris. Is this all? Because I feel always from
the women that they are not enough protected. Are there
another examples?

Harikesa Swami: Ask them.

Padmanabha dasa: I hear all the time this word "protection"
and I think "respect" is the problem. They are giving
examples that for me don't mean protection: that they get
Tulasi to worship.

Arcana dd: It's also appreciation. That they make service as
valuable as the men. 

Visvadeva dasa: But you also addressed the same problem that
the sannyasis don't get the right respect. The women feel
that only women don't get respect but the men also...

Padmanabha dasa: But at least the rules are there for
sannyasi. Everybody knows I should offer my obeisances. I
should serve him prasadam first and wait ... But for the
ladies are no rules. Like 50% of the room. And then this
generation grow up and they see, the ladies get 50% of the
room and that's part of what impregnates their intelligence.

Harikesa Swami: The technical aspect of it is that whatever
you get they should get. That's all. It's all. As much as
you get they should get. That's all. Technically. But then
there is more to it. And that is don't put unmarried
brahmacarinis and unmarried brahmacaries in the same kitchen
and expect you are going to have a peaceful situation there
or even what is cooked is offerable to the Deity. That's
protection. And then there are other aspects of protection
that I can think of that I don't want to have anything to do
with. Like for example getting all these girls married. If I
can somehow be involved in an arrangement when it happens
and it actually works, then I feel kind of OK. I feel a
little happy, like I've done something nice. But they are so
many that I can't do that to. When there are girls who are
very, very valuable I feel very inclined to try to help
them. Still if I make the wrong choice they are going to
hate me later on.

Amavasya dd: They asked about protection and he said it is
respect. Sometimes I have difficulties to explain what I
mean. To always feel this subtle sex is quite bothersome. So
I have the question in this regard. It is really a question,
not a challenge. I want to know what reason is behind this
if men and women cannot do something simultaneously side by
side why always the men come first? You said that if the
prasadam cannot be distributed simultaneously the women and
children should be given first the prasadam. But we see in
practice that always the men are first. During initiation,
during offering the flowers during guru-puja, when you
distribute the cake during Vyasa-puja. Always if we cannot
do it simultaneously the men come first. Is there any
cultural reason behind that system?

Harikesa Swami: Yes. Because that's why Srila Prabhupada did
it.

Amavasya dd: Yes. Do you know why? 

Harikesa Swami: I never question Srila Prabhupada. I never
ask him, Srila Prabhupada why don't you give the girls
first? He might say, because I am a sannyasi. I myself as a
sannyasi have no responsibility to take care of the women
first. Understand that very well. Anything I do for the
women it's purely mercy.

Amavasya dd: I don't mean who is responsible. I only ask
you, because if you say something we will listen.

Harikesa Swami: I'm not going to have women come first when
I give out the cake at my Vyasa- puja. I can't do that
anyway because of my back, but if I would to do it I would
not have the women come first. Not at all. The fact that I
am giving you the cake - is mercy. And is also a plot I
have, because if I can give you a big piece of cake and you
get fat... you know what comes next.

Padmanabha dasa: But there is some Vedic understanding to
this process of who comes first. For example, we take the
ghee lamp from the Deity and then start at the top, you
start with the renunciates, and then you work your way down.
But each time it becomes stronger. Just like prasadam, first
sannyasis and down and down and down. If you the last one to
get the ghee lamp then you get from everybody in the whole
line. It is Vedic principle that the last place is the best.
You get the most.

Harikesa Swami: So why don't you give it to me last?
(laughter)

Harikesa Swami: There are certain things in our culture
which are just given. We can't mess too much. Are the ladies
in general really upset that the men get the ghee lamp
first. (SV looks at the ladies) No, they all say no.

Amavasya dd: No they are not upset. I only wanted to ask
because I was thinking a lot about this. Because it's really
some obstacle for spiritual life if we maintain this subtle
sex situation. I'm only thinking about this. I do not feel
disturbed. If you want, I can stay outside the temple if
this will help book distribution.

Harikesa Swami: I think you should understand that you are
not this body and anything that happens to this body is just
something which has to happen due to the influence of the
modes of material nature. And you should rise above those
modes and become transcendental.

Amavasya dd: One should not clear out ...?

Harikesa Swami: The points you've raised have been valuable
and we are talking about them and I agree to practically
everything but when you want to start messing around with
how the ghee lamp goes and why I give the cake to the men
first, why the boys come up first during initiation. You are
just messing with things the way Prabhupada did it, you
know.

Amavasya dd: I didn't know this. I only was asking. 

Harikesa Swami: I'm just answering.

Bhaktivaibhava Swami: I can touch on these points also in my
paper or book. I also do a lot of Vedic research.

Harikesa Swami: That's good. I can't wait for your book. 

Mahadeva dasa: The question was also raised about
protection. It came also to my mind what you address also
later on that there is a question also of getting the ladies
married. Women should get married and acceding to the Vedic
view very early. It's said like that in Manu-samhita I read
one incident in regard to Srila Prabhupada's ... it was in
Hari-sauri book. He gives examples that Srila Prabhupada
gave dowry to some of his women disciples. My question is
whether there is some responsibility in this regard also
that we give something like that.

Harikesa Swami: Like a dowry?

Mahadeva dasa: Yes. I would expend this also to the male
devotees. Because who else should take care of it in our
situation?

Harikesa Swami: So I should send all the women to you?

Mahadeva dasa: No. I only raised the question. I feel like
you always presented these two sides. You tell the male
devotees to stay brahmacari, but the women should all be
married.

Harikesa Swami: But the amazing thing is that THEY all make
the arrangements. They all figure it out how to get married.
Isn't it? Somehow or other they figure out how to get
married. And if there is nobody who wants to marry him, what
can we do about them? But when they want to get married they
figure it out. Every pot finds its lid. Unless you are
volunteering here, but what is required? If you really want
to answer your question properly what is required is that
you have to volunteer to now find husbands for these wives.
And this is a job that I am sure you are not going to want.
I'm not going to do it. Is anybody in this room going to do
it? Caksu!

Caksu dasa: I just want to say something. This statement
that all the girls should get married I was thinking about
for some time. Is it the essence of marriage to get
protection. So as far as I could understand Prabhupada took
also women into ISKCON so that they can get protected. So as
long as they are in ISKCON and are following their authority
they are protected. It's like being married.

Harikesa Swami and Padmanabha: Oh, no.

Padmanabha dasa: So, here we come back to this point where
the women have less intelligence. It works this way. A man
can have a spiritual master who is five thousand miles away
or maybe not even on the planet and that can work. For women
in general that doesn't work. She has to have someone who is
right there every day. So it's cannot be the same as a
marriage. That's this surrogate-husband business, because
she has to have this person every day. If it's not the
husband then it's a temple president...

Harikesa Swami: or sankirtan leader, kitchen head...

Padmanabha dasa: It's automatic.

Caksu dasa: I don't mean it's the same.

Padmanabha dasa: But that's what you said.

Harikesa Swami: What did you mean?

Caksu dasa: Isn't the essence of marriage to get protection?
So at least to some degree... 

Padmanabha dasa: To some degree... What does that mean?
Surrogate husband. Either that person is the husband or he
isn't.

Harikesa Swami: What do you mean, "to some degree?" 

Danavir dasa: Like a father, or like a good son. Like in
some family there is a lady and her husband takes sannyas.
So she is supposed stay in the movement and stay in the
temples and be protected by the society. Prabhupada wanted
that. So what is our duty then? We are the sons, we are
supposed to see her as mother. So we should look after her
and protect her like that. And if someone is acting as a
temple president or is acting in a position of a ksatriya,
he is supposed to see all other as his children. That's how
it is described in the Bhagavatam. That the ksatriyas they
see all other as their children. So they care for them. So I
think that's what you mean. That there is protection within
the society.

Harikesa Swami: That's all right.

Padmanabha dasa: Just because someone makes an effort in
this direction doesn't mean there will be results. The idea
that somehow I can as a manager make some arrangement to
change someone's karma. I think this is a general
misconception that I join ISKCON, take initiation and then
Krsna changes my karma. Then I don't have to get married or
I don't have to have children or I don't have to get sick
anymore. I don't see this in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "You
get your situation, just use that to satisfy Me." But I see
the attitude that somehow my karma is going to get better. I
surrender for couple of years and then either my kidneys
work or I can stay brahmacari. We can make all arrangements
we want but Paramatma is still going to marry this one at
this time, that one at that time, and this one never or
whatever.

Harikesa Swami: Did you understand what he said?

Danavir dasa: I think I did.

Devotee: But I didn't.

Harikesa Swami: Say it better. 

Padmanabha dasa: My understanding of Bhagavad-gita is that
everything is planned. Krsna says I know past, present and
future. Everything is planned. My responsibility is to use
my karma in Krsna's service. The idea that I join ISKCON,
surrender and Krsna changes my karma is a misconception.
There is nothing to change. Transcendental means I get
beyond this in this sense that it doesn't take me up and
down like the material modes. So the idea that I can avoid
marriage or get married faster than my karma was this is for
me ridiculous.

Harikesa Swami: I've told girls who have asked me about
this. I've said that if Krsna wants you to get married you
will get married no matter what your condition is. And if
Krsna doesn't want you to get married no matter how hard you
try, you are not going to get married and you are going to
be frustrated. So you just have to surrender to Krsna and
find out what He wants. But there is a change of karma.
Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhajan. What about that?

Padmanabha dasa: If I can avoid marriage, what happens to
the person whose karma was to be my son, and to the woman
whose karma was to have this idiot as her husband. What
happens to these people?

Harikesa Swami: You'll probably will take sannyas and then
you will get captured by this woman...

Padmanabha dasa: I accept the defeat.

Harikesa Swami: I wasn't trying to defeat you but actually
we've seen it happen. 

Padmanabha dasa: So therefore we should not meditate about
these things and make own plans. We should just let Krsna do
what he wants. If I push for sannyas but my karma is to have
this son, then just by being passionate I ruin the whole
thing. Better I just relax and accept what He sends.

Harikesa Swami: I personally like that sannyasis don't take
sannyas unless they are being checked out astrologically by
very good astrologers who say they are not going to fall
down. The Madhva sampradaya does this and they only lost two
sannyasis in the last seven hundred years I think. And both
of them were within the last five years, if I remember
correctly. Don't quote me on that one, but it's something
like that. I think it's important. If in your chart it says
that you actually got renunciation in there then it safer
than if it says you are going to have ten children. But
Krsna does change the karma of a devotee. Krsna changed the
karma of Gop kumara in Brhad-bhagavatamrta. He said, I have
changed your karma. It is possible that Krsna will directly
change your karma in special circumstances. Or He will use
your karma to make you surrender. Let's say you are in maya
and it's your karma to get sick. He will give you that
sickness reducing the karmani nirdahati, reducing the
sickness so that you can still understand your Krsna
consciousness but use it in such a way as you can make
advancement.

Actually we need matchmakers. You know that? In Lord
Caitanya's time Vanamali was the matchmaker in Navadvipa.
All he did all day was go around and look at all the girls
and see what qualities they have and look at all the boys
and see what qualities they had. Then speculate who would be
a good match. And then when he would find a good match, he
would check it out astrologically and all that to see if
they would be good matches and then he would go to the
mother of the girl and say, "Would you like to get your girl
married?" The mother would say, "Oh yes, oh yes. Who do you
think?" "Just wait. I'll be back." Then he goes to the
mother of the boy. He says, "You know, I have a very good
girl for your son. Do you agree with that." She says, "Oh,
yes. Who is the girl?" He would say, "This girl." She says,
"Oh yes, arrange it immediately." And then he would go back
and say, "This boy." And then she says, "Oh yes, wonderful."
And then they would make the matches. That's the way they
are doing it in villages still in India. Actually a
matchmaker is very important. Temple presidents stink as
matchmakers. They are useless at this because the temple
president cannot go back and forth like that. Second of all
he is not neutral. He is thinking this girl is doing
sankirtan so nicely right now. If I get her married to this
boy then this is going to be too good a connection they are
going to be too happy in householder life. That will be too
bad for the finances. Therefore I shall not do it. And so
on. So we really need matchmakers. In Almvik we had a
discussion about this and we made Bharata the matchmaker in
Almvik. He has become the matchmaker. Actually everybody was
very blissful about that. I've done it personally sometimes.
Sometimes I cheat. I do it through Kasiraja or somebody like
that. But I've done it sometimes. And I have a lot of fun
doing it sometimes like a father has fun doing it for their
daughters and their sons. But sometimes I hate it... There
is nothing worse than to later on be blamed, "You put me in
this marriage. I didn't want it." There is nothing worse in
the whole world then to be blamed like that. It's just
horrible. Therefore I keep my fingers out of it as much as I
can. Although I am pretty good at it.

Danavir dasa: Prabhupada liked it when he made a suggestion
and both parties took it seriously. He liked it very much.
As in the case of Bhurijana and Jagattarini. He said, "Just
on my word I ask her to go. She never saw this boy. She went
all the way to Japan, she married him and completely happy."
Prabhupada used to talk that how surrender his devotees are.

Harikesa Swami: There are a lot of points left. I'll read
them.

1) What are the next steps to bring concepts into practical
reality. That we answered that it is preaching and talking
about it and becoming aware of it.

2) Women's problems. That we did.

3) Mistakes in past, see what is right or wrong. This is
from Padmanabha. Especially according to women. That we did
a lot.

4) What is ISKCON. That we never touched.

5) Elders and respect. That we did something. Not about
elders, but respect. 

6) Committees. We never touched upon.

7) Deity standards.

8) Responsibility. We talked around but not really.

9) How to instill in the minds of the devotees the desire to
give. (Diviratha) 

10) Training systems and education systems in relation to
varnasrama. How to approach the varnasrama college, train
the varnas and asrama. What's the next step. (BVS) He is
going to write a book. And we can also talk about it in the
future too. Personally I feel the training is going on right
now. So I see this as part and parcel of that.

11) Protection, support and encouragement for Krsna
conscious sudras. (Amavasya)

12) How to enhance loving exchange between devotees.
(Paramatma) That's a very important point.

13) How to engage intellectuals and what was wrong. (Daya)

14) How to establish an atmosphere of truthfulness.
(Gangadhara)

15) Training of varnas and asramas as part of temple
structure. (Isani) 

16) The reputation of the householder asram. (Arcana)

17) What is the role of the temple in ISKCON considering
this discussion. (Caksu)

18) What is the ideal for different practical services.
(Visvadeva)

19) A plan to keep our Vaisnava youth. (Sugriva) Which I
personally have taken as my own devotional service in Sweden
to engage Vaisnava youth in any way I can in the BBT.

Sacinandana Swami: It works great. I was so impressed by the
young devotees working there and being totally happy. I made
the tour for four hours with Brahma-muhurta and we met a few
of them.

Harikesa Swami: I consider that personally the most
important thing in ISKCON today. It's funny. But that my
particular angle on things.

20) Training and bhakta program of proper human qualities.
(Guru-sakti) 

These should be discussed tomorrow a far as possible.