EXCERPTS FROM AN UNDATED TAPE LABELLED: `DARSAN GOUR GOVINDA SWAMI: VARTMA PRADARSAYA GURU' Q: It's seen that some take disciples, but they can't really show the mercy. They can't really do it. So it's a superficial type of relationship. A: Guru is heavy responsibility. Very heavy responsibility. Not easy thing. No. Not at all. He should have some potency. (Indistinct) karmas. Karmas. Sinful reactions come. Understand? Sinful reactions come. Disciples with so many lakhs of lifetimes, so many sins they have accumulated. Giving shelter means (indistinct). Q: What do you think of the present situation, when so many devotees accept disciples nowadays? A: (Laughing) Two things are there. Two sides are there. One is spiritual side, the other is organizational matters, governmental matters. (Indistinct phrases). Q: So you mean this is to please the gurus, or, or, or? A: It is for the gurus. They want some position. They want some (indistinct). This is all material things. Because they are doing some work for the society (indistinct). So big organizers, how can you go on, how can you do anything? So this, that point is there. Q: Otherwise, could we imagine that there will be one guru for the whole world and accepting millions of disciples, this is possible? A: Yes, (quotes Sri Upadesamrta verse one, Sanskrit and translation). Whole world you can rule (indistinct) if you are disciplined, that means under his discipline. (Indistinct). Have disciples throughout the world (indistinct). That it means. So? Q: It seems that soon gotta be the time that that's gotta happen, soon, very soon, because everything's too sporadic, its just... A: Yes. It will take its course automatically, you see? It will go on, go on (laughs). Q: So the acarya will come to rise and everything else will... A: That Lord Caitanya (Prabhupada?) said. Acarya will come up. Acarya is not made. (Indistinct, laughing). Do you follow? (Indistinct). Q: 'Cause you see their argument is, well, in Guatemala, for instance, is so, who will go to Guatemala and take charge of this hundred devotees there? One person cannot give personal association... A: Yes, this is governmental matter. This is organizing matter. Think of this organizing, to keep it up. So that thing is there, that side is there. I said two sides are there. Q: Yeah, but talking on the side of the devotees, not on the side of the gurus who want position. Talking on the side of the devotees because, you see, even in France I heard, you know, this argument that, well, I want a guru who's present, I can have association with. So the tendency is to accept anyone who is a local devotee, you know. He's been in the zone for ten years, fifteen years now, he's accepting disciples. So we'll take from him because he will give us a lot of personal association. But then what if he's not so qualified? A: If you want so, then Krsna makes all right, he wants this, alright, take it! He wants this thing, all right, take it. (Indistinct) one is very serious. He wants Krsna. Yes, I want Krsna. Who can give me Krsna, who has got Krsna, he can give. Otherwise how one can give me what he's not gotten? I want complete Krsna, not 50% Krsna, 60% or 30% Krsna. Who has gotten, same person only he can give. Someone has gotten 50% how he can give cent percent? (Indistinct). Krsna knows your desire, what you are thinking, what you want. Oh, this fellow wants this thing, all right, you--Maya--supply. Send a guru to him. The Maya (indistinct). He wants this thing. Right. You'll join, every day you can meet, you can associate, all right, take it. Do you follow? Q: Because I don't know, you know, if I think there's a misconception, you know, regarding the relationship between Prabhupada and some of his disciples. Because you see some disciples, they complain that, for instance, we were initiated, we didn't see Prabhupada. So some devotees, you see, in the time of Prabhupada, some, they... A: They have not seen Prabhupada. Q: So they have not seen Prabhupada, or sometimes they said, well, you see, we wanted to come in Prabhupada's room to speak with him but such-and-such secretary, he was blocking the way, we could not have access to Prabhupada. Sometimes they feel they had a lack of association with Srila Prabhupada. So what do you think, you know, because on the other hand we say it is not material relationship, it is beyond bondage, so one second of association with a pure devotee... (Interruption--a lizard or rat appears, someone says `Hare Krsna, what is that?!? Did it bite you?' Indistinct exchanges). Q: (Continues) So what is important is the, that the connection has been established, that the devotee in his heart, he is worshiping his guru, even though he may not have so much direct association, is it? A: Therefore for them, when they need it, guru is there. It is not the fact that, my guru has departed, no more guru. The guru is there. Who is so serious, he'll accept. Siksa guru. Through that guru, Prabhupada can teach them. Prabhupada is still there. Our guru-tattva is so subtle tattva, if one understands it then he'll be liberated. Yes, my guru is still teaching me. My guru is still teaching me, taking care of me, yes. I see you, I feel your presence, then? So? If one is a fool, cannot understand that, (indistinct). One who deserves cheating, he's cheated. One who deserves mercy, gets mercy. Q: So, does this mean that only pure devotee actually should initiate and accept disciples? If not pure devotee, then he should not. A: Sastra says (quotes Bengali verse). Hari Nama Cintamani, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, you should accept a suddha bhakta, a pure devotee, as guru, yes. Q: Because nowadays the conception of many devotees is that, I may accept this guru as diksa guru, but I know he is not a pure devotee, but then, further, later on, I will accept a siksa guru, you know, I'll take siksa from more and more elevated devotees. A: Therefore siksa gurus are many. Diksa guru is only one. You can accept siksa gurus, more and more, you get that, yes. Take this siksa, I want something more he cannot impart, give me. Seek from who is more elevated, accept a siksa guru, that's the...many siksa gurus. Q: So still they have a big chance to accept a diksa guru who doesn't fall, then after they take siksa of a pure devotee. A: Yes, that is chance. One should accept. Prabhupada is no more, but one should accept siksa guru. Prabhupada will teach through him. Take care of you, yes. That is guru- tattva. (Quotes Guru-vandana) What does it mean? Life after life he is my guru. I'll open my eyes. (Indistinct). He's gone, no more? What is this nonsense? ...[later segment of same tape]... Q: So this process of being monitor guru in ISKCON, I mean, to finish with the question, you know, I mean is this all right or not all right? Because Prabhupada refers to that, but still we can see it is not satisfactory. A: It is needed. Q: It is needed, huh? A: Needed, yes. Monitor guru, yes, needed. Otherwise, who'll keep the discipline? If no teacher, the monitor takes over. Keeps discipline. (Indistinct). ...[later segment]... Q: So referring to this pure devotee acarya, we should understand that he's descending from the spiritual world. A: Yes. Q: So what to think of those devotees who may be conditioned souls and may be elevated to the platform of pure devotion? Are they still proficient and can they still also be guru acarya? A: That is vartmapradarsaka guru. Vartmaradarsaka guru. Like Suniti-devi. Dhruva's mother. That chapter Prabhupada has described all these things. He'll show the path. All right, so if there's no light, without the mercy of Lord Narayana then...(indistinct). Then met his real guru Narada Muni. But Suniti helped with it. So she's vartmapradarsaka guru. (Indistinct). And by dint of the devotion of Dhruva, Suniti got, went with him. In that sense, disciple also delivers the guru. Do you follow my point? Do you follow my point? Q: But that means the vartmapradarsaka guru, in that instance, the disciple delivers the guru. No other instance. A: Dhruva delivers his mother. Dhruva was the pure devotee. Do you understand? The mother is vartmapradarsaka guru. Through his devotion, she is delivered. Yes. In that way it is said also, in some place, Prabhupada has said (indistinct) if I would have made one pure devotee, then I think my guruship is successful. That devotee, he would help you. Do you understand? [...later segment...] Q: Referring to what you were saying previously, should we understand that someone who is coming from a conditioned position, if he's really introspective and honest, then he should never become guru and leave this position for an acarya who will come from the spiritual world, and he should never assume such a position? A: He should be vartmapradarsa guru. Q: Yeah, like that. Just introduce people. A: Introduce people. Q: We've made hundreds of gurus in ISKCON. A: I said, (?) this is organizing matter. Q: And if one says they're all equal? A: Organizing matters. Otherwise how can you keep up this big organization? Widespread. Q: Actually, they're all in the position of vartmapradarsaka guru. They're introducing devotees to... A: Someone is pure devotee is a real guru, what is that, questions are all like that, answers are all (laughs). (Indistinct). Q: So that means, when the acarya comes from wherever he comes, that they should all work behind him, work with him. A: Hmm? Q: When the acarya comes, whoever he is, wherever he comes from, then, all these gurus, for everything to be proper and align itself, they should stand behind this acarya and work with him. A: Behind acarya. Q: He's in the front, and they're his helpers. A: Acarya is like a big light, you understand? [Break] Example of this electric poles. Some are big poles, with big light and big power. Some inbetween, small poles, small (indistinct), small light. Like this. Do you follow me? They're all in a line, but there is big pole with big light. Much power, much more than... This is literal example we give. Like the line of the gurus, like this. And all the small ones, they get power from him. Understand? From the big pole. Supplies voltage.