Text COM:714706 (198 lines) [W1] From: Internet: Jayapataka Swami Date: 24-Jul-97 08:03 To: Answers To KC Questions (Jayapataka Swami) [99] Cc: "Acyuta d., Medha D.d." Cc: Adi @Purusha @dasa Cc: Bhanu Swami (Madras - IN) [3814] Cc: Spiritual Daughter Carla Cc: Deepak @Desai(Veena+) Cc: Bhuvana Mohini (dd) HKS (AU) [150] (forwarded: 24-Jul-97 10:20) Cc: Dvibhuj-MahaLakshmi-Radh Cc: Goloka(BLR) Cc: Govardhan-lila Cc: Harilal(Mathuradesa) Cc: "Hunter,Andrew" Cc: Jagadananda&Annamaria Cc: Jagdip Cc: Janmasiddha (das) JPS (Ecuador) [72] Cc: Javarajit-Dasa. <104400.3353@compuserve.com> Cc: Jayadayini&Madhavalatadd <106572.332@compuserve.com> Cc: Jeremy @Quinn Cc: JohGilba Cc: JPS Istagosthi (disciples and followers) [381] Cc: Kaivalya-Sundari-dd Cc: Karina-Bhaktin Cc: Krishna @Vallabhi-dd Cc: Laghuram Cc: Limamandir Cc: Mahabuddhi (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [84] (forwarded: 24-Jul-97 10:20) Cc: Mahasundar Cc: "Mendoza, Argentina" Cc: Mina-dd Cc: Murugesan&Suddha Cc: Nanda-kumar Cc: Nicholas(Bhakta) Cc: Nitaicarandas Cc: Partha Cc: Sakhyarasa @Prema Cc: SATISH @ANAND Cc: Subuddhi @Krishna Cc: Vaishnava-pran Subject: Siksa guru question ------------------------------------------------------------ Camp: Swissair flight Delhi to Zurich enroute to London Mayapur SMPDC Meetings. I received this question and thought the answer took so long to give I should share it with a wider audience. ----------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++------------------------ ---------------- > Maharaja the question has arisen, “Why would one need a siksa guru? What are > your realizations on the need of a devotee having a siksa guru? Whether one needs a siksa guru or not is a personal issue. Everyone needs a siksa guru, but one may already have a diksa guru who is also one's siksa guru and that may be sufficient and complete for a devotee. Definitely one needs a guru and I don't think I have to elaborate on that point. What really seems to be the issue here is if someone already has a spiritual master as a diksa or aspiring diksa guru then why have other siksa gurus? The point is that in sastra both kinds of gurus are mentioned and one may have both. The option is there. In Krishna consciousness the diksa guru is also the siksa guru, but he can approve other siksa gurus to help him in delivering the disciple. So sometimes a diksa guru is far from his disciple and may actually ask another guru to be a siksa guru. That is one instance of siksa guru coming from the initiative of the diksa guru. In one case a diksa guru told his disciple who was married to my diksa disciple to accept her husbands and the guru of her husbands instructions. He specifically authorized her to be my siksa disciple. That is another instance of siksa guru coming from the initiative of the diksa guru. Many diksa gurus sent their disciples to study under Jiva Goswami who was authorized to be the siksa guru for their disciples. They learned Krishna consciousness from him and dealt with him as their spiritual master while under his care and afterwards. That siksa guru relationship didn't change their commitment to their diksa guru, but strengthened it and their Krishna consciousness. That is another instance of siksa guru coming from the initiative of the diksa guru. Siksa guru relationship or acceptance may also come from the initiative of the disciple as a natural development of faith due to a variety of reasons. Here are some: 1) Sometimes a devotee feels inspired to serve a vaisnava guru and gets non-different inspiration by doing so like one gets by serving the diksa guru. This can make the disciple feel an increased protection from the diksa guru coming through the siksa guru. When a disciple sees the siksa guru as non-different from the diksa guru or as an extention of him then it is a natural reason to take him as a siksa guru. 2) A devotee doubts get removed by the instructions of a guru and feels very inspired in serving and although it may not be exactly the same as what one is experiencing in serving the diksa/siksa guru it is something very Krishna consciousness and uplifting. The diksa guru approves to establish a siksa guru-disciple relationship with that particular siksa guru as a means of having the disciple advance more effectively. 3) A diksa guru wants to see a disciple get advanced in Krishna consciousness and return back to godhead in this lifetime. If the disciple is advancing nicely under the encouragement and guidance of a siksa guru and thus helping him he is happy. A devotee needs to see if he/she has faith enough in this guru to also accept his teachings as representative of the diksa guru and Krishna. If so then one can accept as a formal siksa guru with the permission of the diksa guru. 4) A disciple may be so inspired to serve a spiritual master and help him in his mission as well as to take guidance and help in Krishna consciousness that to do so has a real positive influence in the spiritual life of the disciple. When that is a standing and regular feature and a relationship exists then it is natural to formalize it as a siksa guru-disciple relationship. 5) A formal acceptance of a siksa guru means that the disciple wants the siksa guru to look upon the disciple as a disciple and to take the initiative to help the disciple to serve his/her diksa guru (if he/she has one) and Lord Krishna. It is a serious commitment and can be a source of great strength, but shouldn't be taken cheaply or lightly. 6) In a family situation like ISKCON many spiritual relationships between senior devotees and younger devotees may develop naturally in Krishna consciousness and that is not bad or wrong. It is natural and Krishna consciousness to have that happen. It happened during the time of Lord Caitanya and it is happening now. If such a relationship or faith does exist then rather than deny it or ignore it one should take whatever spiritual benefit one can get to return back to Godhead. Srila Prabhupada explains in his SB purport that the secret of success for a devotee is to take advantage of the mercy of the diksa and siksa gurus and thus get back to Godhead. When such a relationship exists one need not feel guilty about it even though another devotee might not have the same relationship or faith in a siksa guru or the same siksa guru. Spiritual life in Krishna consciousness is personal. When such relationships do exist accepting that guru as a siksa guru is a natural development. It depends on the degree of faith, dependence, spiritual affection, etc. Also the relationship between the siksa and diksa guru is a factor as contradictory teachings or moods may create confusion. 7) A new devotee may not have decided on whom to take as a diksa guru but has faith in a guru (or more than one guru) as transparent representative(s) of Krishna but doesn't know if he/she wants to take diksa from that guru. In that case the guru could be accepted as a siksa guru and Krishna conscious relationship cultivated. If faith grows then the disciple may decide to also ask for shelter and late take initiation. If one's faith and inspiration grows more for another guru then there is no offense to accept that other guru as diksa guru while one can still continue with the ongoing relationship of siksa guru as well. 8) Even prior to initiation a new devotee may have relationships and receive significant spiritual inspiration from more than one spiritual master. The spiritual masters may also be mercifully inclined to help the new devotee. Instead of accepting one guru and cutting off all guru-disciple relationships with others, the new devotee can accept one as diksa guru and establish/maintain siksa-guru relationship with the other(s). I could go on giving examples. Some are hair line differences. Maybe more than a dozen are there that come to mind, but the above are probably the most applicable to a wider range of devotees. Others are mainly more specific situations which would only apply to a limited number of people. Do you want to hear more, or is this enough to give you an idea? > What is the > difference between a formal siksa guru, an ordinary siksa guru and an > ever-well wisher? A formal siksa guru is someone who has been accepted formally as a siksa guru and who has accepted the devotee as a siksa disciple. In ISKCON only an authorized diksa/siksa guru can be accepted as a formal siksa guru. It means that the orders of the siksa guru are also accepted as "guru vakya" or instructions of the guru and can't be neglected unless they contradict the diksa gurus instructions or Krishna's (which means no longer guru). In a nutshell a formal siksa guru means that the disciple has faith in the spiritual master as a transparent representative of Lord Krishna for himself/herself. If a siksa guru gives wrong instructions he is responsible to Krishna for that and has to accept the reactions for it. It is a serious responsibility to be a siksa guru and the siksa guru needs to look out for the siksa-disciple and try to bring that disciple back to Godhead assisting the diksa guru. An ordinary siksa guru. Well we don't usually say ordinary. Maybe informal or vartma pradarsaka guru is used. This is any vaisnava who gives us valuable instruction showing us the way to practice Krishna consciousness. We don't accept that person as our shelter necessarily or accept everything they say, but some things they said have made a major or important impact in our Krishna consciousness. So we respect and appreciate them for the contribution. It may even be a very short contact, but we appreciate the help rendered. There may be countless of such gurus. I have devotees i personally consider in this category in relation to my own spiritual life---who later left the movement, but still I respect the help they gave me at one time. later one came back and I was very happy since I had prayed for that. An "ever well wisher guru"? Well there is no specific category like this, but a guru uncle or any siksa or diksa guru may be an ever well wisher if that is the sentiment the guru holds for the devotee-- to always wish them well and to help them be Krishna conscious in all ways possible. > Are there different levels of worship given to the siksa > and diksa guru? The diksa guru is a very formal relationship and usually all formal worship goes to him. A siksa disciple should also offer respects and can offer pranam to the siksa guru, but that might only be once or sometimes in a day. the daily worship of Deities and everything is through the diksa guru unless the diksa guru authorizes it to go through the siksa guru in some rare circumstances. In receiving a siksa guru or in respecting him when he is present the dealings may be similar, but there is not so much of a formal obligation to do so like the diksa guru. It is also a matter of faith and love of the disciple for the guru. Generally siksa guru relationship is more informal which also makes it easier to take instruction, but that doesn't mean that it is totally casual. It is also respectful. This question may vary from one siksa guru and one relationship to another. It is fine tuned through instructions. > Should one receive recommendations from Temple authorities > and take a shelter test. A shelter test is only needed when one is taking shelter and preparing for initiation from that siksa guru. In that case it is a trial run as a virtual diksa guru or trial period diksa guru. No ISKCON law requires that such a test be taken for other circumstances. As far as recommendations of temple authorities is concerned this is required according to ISKCON law only when one is considered an ASPIRANT siksa disciple, ie. has decided or aspires to accept the siksa guru in the future as one's diksa guru as well (this is for non-initiated and non-sheltered). There is no specific ISKCON law requiring permission from a Temple authority in order to accept a siksa guru that I know of where the siksa guru relationship doesn't contain a commitment for initiation or shelter. In fact it is one of the privileges of ISKCON Membership to be able to take siksa or diksa from an ISKCON guru according to ones faith. Having said that, it would probably be good to discuss it with the local authority if one has a doubt as to whether they would want to be involved or not. If one is initiated or under the Guru's shelter one should have permission of one's guru to accept a particular siksa guru. Some gurus have given advance permission for particular gurus due to a mutual understanding and relationship between them. (Text COM:714706) ------------------------------------------