To: vrnparker@yahoo.com From: humanidades India Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:42:18 -0400 Subject: re: [world-vedic] Fwd: To Krishna Bhakti das of the French Association of Vaishnavas What is Vedic From Giri Das (HDG) Brief introductory note from Iksvaku das (HDG) In the month of May of last year, my Godbrothers Maharshi Prabhu, Giri Dhari Prabhu and their humble servant, we had the opportunity to be with our dear Spiritual Master, Srila Hridayananda das Goswami Acaryadeva. In the diverse conversations that we had, one of the main topics tried by our Gurudeva was the analysis of what truly means "Vedic." And like it could be happening that for an incomplete understanding of what implies to be "faithful followers of the Vedic principles" we are blocking our approach to the Society in general. In other words, we could create a great wall between the Society and the Vaisnavas. After returning to our places of origin, as much Giri Dhari Prabhu as me, we think of editing a writing with the purpose that the community Vaisnava, mainly of Hispanic and Portuguese speech, analyze these interesting topics. But because Giri Dhari made it first, and according to my opinion, in an expert way, I felt unnecessary carrying out another treaty. However, I considered wise to translate it and to present it in Spanish. (Giri Dhari's original is in Portuguese, the Portuguese-Spanish translation carried out Bhakta Roberto Zembranelli) So, I hope the readers analyze this writing in an objective way. Nevertheless, I would like to mention that written are not our Spiritual Teacher's textual words although I believe that except for some details, it maintains the spirit of what our Gurudeva tried to transmit. This topic also wanted to add a meaning of the Srimad Bhagavatam, in that Srila Prabhupada leaves the open door so that the mature Vaisnavas who have always maintained the Sidhanta, propose norms according to the historical context that it plays them to live so that the "Universal Spirit of the Vaisnavism", for the true benefit of the whole humanity, can achieve a bigger reach, without having to break up with the whole established outline of traditions and customs inside a time and specific places determined by the circumstances. Translation The Supreme Lord is limitless, only a very expert Personality, free from the activities of the material happiness, deserves to understand this knowledge about the spiritual values. Consequently, for those that are not so well situated, due to the material attachment, Your Grace should show them the process of the spiritual understanding, through the descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord. Meaning (I summarize) The devote experts can discover new means and forms of converting those not devoted in function of the time and the circumstance matters. The devotional service is a dynamic activity and the devotee experts can look for appropriate means to inject it in the materialistic population's dull brains. That class of activities that the devotees carry out gives birth to the service of the Lord, they can introduce a new order of life in the fatuous society of the materialistic men. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His immediate followers exhibited an expert dexterity to this respect. With following the same method, one can put the order among the materialistic men of this fight era for the sake of the peaceful life and the transcendental illumination. WHAT is VEDIC Extracted from some chats with Hridayananda das Gosvami Acaryadeva in May 2002. A quite wide definition of the Vedic term, is the whole fruit of a more complete, higher knowledge. Therefore, the most important initial point should be understanding that Vedic doesn't mean Hindu. A great confusion exists to this respect. Because it happens that the Vedic knowledge is manifested firstly in that part of the world that today calls India and there it had been preserved. But blended with the pure Vedic knowledge, an enormous local cultural coalition exists, bequeathed by the Muslim invaders, product of the typical decadence of our current era. This way, combined with the pure Vedic knowledge, we can find superstitions, rituals of all type and other elements of the mundane culture characteristic of India. A practical example of this is observed in the Caitanya Bhagavata, in the narration of the marriage of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with Srimati Visnu Priya, since among the Vedic rituals of marriage are also observed many other local customs. That is to say that five hundred years back in the city where the Lord appeared, it was distinguished between the Vedic culture and the regional one. How can we separate the straw of the wheat? By basing us on the Vedic writings, confirmed by all the big Acaryas of our line of succession (parampara), in which the Supreme Personality of God, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself, is included. We are speaking of the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad Gita, Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, etc. For what is excellent to understand that Srila Prabhupada brought to the Occident a perfect spiritual science, not Hinduism. In a speech given in their victorious return to the India, Srila Prabhupada emphasized to his countrymen: "If you try to convert a Westerner to the Hinduism, he will kick you in the face." Prabhupada didn't come with that end to the West. He came to bring something pure, very above any geographical or temporary influence, something truly universal. This is the universal science of the Krishna Consciousness which he and the whole parampara wants it to be distributed to the world. The world is not interested in another manifestation of culture and mundane religiosity. It is more and more desirous of a pure and complete spiritual scientific knowledge, to give sense and purpose to their lives. An universal knowledge that returns their healthier and happier lives. This is exactly what the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad Gita teach. External aspects Obviously, there is no doubt of the spiritual and philosophical aspect of practice inside ISKCON. The writings are detailed and Srila Prabhupada's comments return them a hundred comprehensible percent. The essence of our practice, the regulative principles, the chanting of the Maha Mantra, the whole vast wealth of information about the Spiritual World and the life in other parts of the material universe; the name, the form and the hobbies of God. All this is perfectly trustworthy, explained in the writings by all the Acaryas of our parampara. This is our great treasure, the clear and perfect knowledge about the absolute one that the Society needs human point and that it transforms the life of everybody who receives it. However, some external aspects of our norms exist, especially in the form when presenting us in the Occident that they need to be examined. Here is a clear confusion what is truly Vedic and what is barely Hindu, Hinduistic or simply invented. The risks Could you then ask what the problem is with practicing something Hindu or Hinduistic? The problem is serious because our mission is not to be some mere representatives of the Hindu or Hinduistic culture, as beautiful and noble it may be. Our destination is not conquering a small territory in the field of the world ethnic cultures. Our mission is to save the world, since we are representing Prabhupada, the devotee of God, and Krishna. To represent means to present again. Prabhupada didn't come to the West to begin a net of cultural missions of India. He came to save the humanity. Therefore, if we are in some way affecting the image of our movement, we are representing badly the true Vedic culture. Then we are failing in our mission. Finally, the external aspect is what is seen first, if this external aspect, for our flaw, is not very attractive, boring or ridiculous, then we are harming the spiritual life of those that due to our bad performance will lose the interest in the message of Krishna and Prabhupada and the desire of knowing them. Even from the psychological point of view, it is known that the body and the mind have a natural resistance to change. Therefore the changes we make, especially external, the smaller will be the number of people that will be willing to accept us or to be interested in the process, especially those already successful and very established in the society. In other words, it is of maximum importance to present the essence, the true spiritual science, to return our more accessible, attractive image and we can give more practical knowledge. What you can change We should be very careful in the understanding of the sense of Vedic culture. We should not continue with models only because they have been used until this moment. On the contrary, we should have the humility of recognizing that we need to adjust ourselves. Because in practical terms, almost forty years after the arrival of Prabhupada to the Occident, one can say that our influence on the Western Society is zero * *. But if millions of human beings and other living beings benefited much of the Krishna consciousness, if hundreds of millions of books and magazines were distributed, countless tons of prasadam were distributed all over the world, all this would be or it is praiseworthy. The problem is that our objectives are much more grandiose: we are here to radically change the consciousness of the materialists, for spiritualizing to a significant part the inhabitants of the planet, especially their leaders. Therefore, I believe that it is valid to begin a discussion on our methods and habits with the intention to perfect our appearance and to represent the true Vedic culture and the Krishna Consciousness better to the world. To resist is natural. Every human being has a psychological mechanism, when any practice or ritual bound to our spirituality is carried out for a while among enough people, it becomes integral part of our life. Even more, without considering the origin or the authenticity of this practices or ritual, we believe that our spiritual lives would be seriously threatened, if interrupted or altered and it is exactly this type of things, those that take us to abandon our traditional religions and to deepen us in the Krishna Consciousness. We should not be sentimentalist but true scientists. We speak a lot that the Krishna Consciousness is a spiritual science and don't only unite religion. Therefore we should keep this in mind when questioning some aspects of our customs, not only now but always. For what is valid always to remember that this is not a permission for the mental speculation. But well, to act scientifically in spiritual terms means to be based a hundred percent on the guru, sastra and sadhu. In ISKCON this implies carrying out Srila Prabhupada's orders, especially those contained in his books, and to not contradict his teachings in any way. Let us analyze some external aspects practiced in ISKCON. The gear Those that we call devotional clothes, that is to say the dhoti, kurtas and saris, they are not devotional. The dhoti has also been used by people that hate Krishna, as the members of the Taliban and other groups of radicals Muslim. The dhoti remains clothes used in the India by atheists, mayavadis, shivaists, and other people in the Middle East and in the South and Southeast of Asia. The saris is also Asian clothes used by people in several regions and it is not exclusively Vaisnava or Vedic. It is a really interesting fact that we cannot find the word dhoti or sari in the old writings. They are not Sanskrit words. What is in the Mahabharata on the description of an appropriate clothes, is the chaste term. That is to say that the truly Vedic clothes is that that is chaste, clean and design. This is to get dressed of agreement with the Vedic culture. Many times we see saris that are not even Vedic, because when exposing too much the stomach of a woman stops to be a worthy clothes and breed. Therefore, clothes cannot be devotional or not without considering the consciousness of who uses it. That is to say, the ethnic of the clothes won't determine if the consciousness of a person is devotional or not but the presentation of chastity, cleaning, dignity and person's general behavior. We also have to abandon the idea that all those that practice the Krishna Consciousness are monks and therefore they need to get dressed as such to go to the temple when in the reality the ninety and nine percent of the members of ISKCON live in their houses and they are in charge of non-monastic activities. So alone the devotees directly responsible for the program of the temple need to get dressed this way and to be identified as such. The other members of the congregation can get dressed in a normal way, in a truly Vedic way (clean breed and designs). Until those that are sannyasis and priests in the temple, when leaving to the street, could get dressed in a discreet way, breed, clean, worthy and not with the same clothes that would use when carrying out a cult or to give a class. This is the label observed in the Occident, followed almost in their entirety for the priests of other religions. Therefore there is not reason to choose clothes that cause shock in the Occident, an Asian clothes that the leaders of these countries not even use as if it was the uniform of an universal spiritual science. When we can opt for something Vedic, appropriate to the current global culture, the consequence will be very good. Imagine like she/he would improve our image if we present ourselves this way. An enormous wall that we have built would be collapsing. It would be fantastic if people were related with the devotee as one gets dressed in a clean and worthy chaste way, since this is the image that we want to transmit. The music We believe that the music and musical instruments of the Occident cannot be Vedic and this is a great mistake. We think that the harmonium, shenai, mridanga and kartalas are truly Vedic. The harmonium is an instrument of German origin and the shenai is of Middle East. Therefore the origin or the instrument type doesn't make difference, more the final result. Vedic music is that which is executed with knowledge. This means with musical knowledge and transcendental knowledge. That is to say the Vedic music doesn't only show a high degree of harmony, grace and musical beauty, but rather it also elevates our God Consciousness. For example Vivaldi was a priest, Bach lived in a monastery and Handel was very religious, he used his music like a way to elevate people and to glorify God. All they are recognized as musical geniuses, their music was made as an offering to God, it should be considered as Vedic. This is hardly an example, but many others exist in the Occident and certainly in other cultures also. The point is to understand again that Vedic doesn't mean solely Hindu. On the other hand, it is not enough to add the spiritual element of the Holy Names of God or their hobbies and instructions to make a sound a Vedic music. If we fasten a perforation machine next to an electric mountain and at the same time we sing the Maha Mantra, we could not affirm that this is devotional music. It is certain that the Holy Names are absolute, but the music is not. To think that any noise is music would be the product of an ignorant society and certainly it goes against the principle of Vedic culture, an excellence culture that looks for the perfection and the elevation in everything. The music in the Vedic culture, as everything else, should be an offering to God. In the same way as the best cooks cook to offer the foods to the Lord, in the same way the best musicians would play and sing for the Deities. Kirtans in the temples are a musical offering to the Deities and not something made for our pleasure and enjoyment, therefore they should not be annoying or excessively noisy (just as happens when playing several kartalas or mridangas and especially if they are not well played, this excessive sound had even caused several devotees partial loss of audition) and the musicality lack perhaps you could consider as offensive as to offer a too salted or burnt food for the Deities. Our spiritual science says that we should cultivate the modality of the goodness, then later to be able to transcend to the pure spirituality. Would the question be that where the goodness is in a kirtan when people run the risk of losing its audition, when percussion instruments are used as a kind of primary therapy?? Where the sound that is produced with difficulty would be interpreted as music on the part of healthy people? We see in the lilas of Lord Caitanya that He personally chose the musicians and singers for their kirtans, choosing the best. We also know that in the principles of ISKCON in the decade of the 60s nobody could play before the Deities without training and being approved. Let us observe as Prabhupada played the mridanga. The mridanga is a true instrument that needs training and study to be able to play very well. Who will play especially before the Deities and other devotees should follow the steps of Prabhupada, studying and practicing seriously. Will we be respected in terms of the highest knowledge and form of living if the musical expression for which we are known and that we offer to God in our temples is so similar to the sound of heavy metal and punk? How many respectable people of our society, teachers, doctors, managers, etc. are able to feel inspired when listening to this kirtan? We can make beautiful kirtans truly sweet ("madhu", Bhaktivinoda Thakur said). Kirtans that invoke the mood of devotion, not the wild passion. We should not make a show of ecstasy, running, screaming and destroying kartals and mridangas. A great risk exists of confusing ecstasy with a manifestation of our original culture, that is to say a culture where the mode of ignorance (noise and pain) and passion (to sing and to play instruments to all volume and frantic rhythm) prevails. In the case of the Harinam Sankirtan in the streets still worse is the lack of consideration because we are forcing people to undergo something that stops most as not anything attractive (curious and funny good time in some cases). In Bombay Prabhupada restricted the Harinam made by his pupils in the streets when he discovered that it was not well seen by the local high class. Will the elite of society in the West find the Harinam attractive? In the time of the hippies a great success could have been and could be a highly effective technique (to attract the hippies), but will this continue being applicable to our time, place and current circumstances? And if we will leave for the streets singing, should not playing instruments be very careful in choosing the musicians, clothes and who will represent us before a real public? The culture of the floor We have in ISKCON the mistaken idea that Vedic culture means to sit down, to eat and to sleep on the floor. We believe that it is so noble and beneficent that we force our companions to make the same thing in our temples. The Srimad Bhagavatam and other writings are full with descriptions of furniture, beds, etc... This is a good example of how the devotees of ISKCON assumed an artificial culture contradicting Srila Prabhupada's suggestions and the old Vedic culture. A famous example is that of the temple of Los Angeles, when Prabhupada went to see the church that later ISKCON bought and where until today the temple of the Los Angeles is located. The seats were still there and Srila Prabhupada said to devotees that they should leave the seats so that the public was more comfortable, but in their enthusiasm the devotees threw them to the garbage and until today the temple is without seats. There is no reason for not taking places so that our companions feel well. It is absurd to believe that we should impose such an annoyance to those who are coming closer to Krishna and Prabhupada and even to impose this to the congregation that most of the devotees have their own comfortable houses, sofas, beds and seats. Why to believe that in the temple the standard should be inferior? Where is the spiritual science in this? The cutleries The same thing can be said of the culture of eating with hands. It is well that Srila Prabhupada did this, but he was educated this way. All his life he lived in a culture where people ate this way. It is obvious therefore that he would not change when arriving to the West. But this is not our case and much less our culture. There is no advantage in eating with hands if we have available cutleries. It is not more hygienic neither more practical and the effect on our companions is very bad because in West this is not very seen and is considered a rude and strange, up to repugnant. Therefore we cannot run the risk of transmitting in this way such a bad impression to act in a way that is not Vedic and not even necessary. Let us meditate a moment on what a Westerner would think when seeing people dressing in Asian clothes that resemble a giant diaper, sitting down on the floor and eating with hands. Perhaps the worst thing of everything is that nothing of this is Vedic neither necessary to help us to develop Krishna Consciousness and definitely it harms our mission very much, our true duty of disclosing the pure spiritual science of the Bhakti-yoga. The foods So much in the Bhagavad Gita as in the Srimad Bhagavatam we find descriptions of the food type that we should offer to Krishna and then we can take as remainders. Diverse times it is explained that we should offer and then to honor foods in the mode of goodness. Such foods are described in the Bhagavad Gita 17.8 as those foods that increase the duration of life, are healthy, purifying our existence, giving force, happiness and satisfaction. This therefore is Vedic eating. It doesn't necessarily have to be Hindu food. Neither we should believe that we can eat all type of fritters, sweets or plates full with industrial cheeses. All yellow cheeses in Brazil (and practically in the entire world) have bovine substance. It is enough to see the precarious health of many old devotees that underwent a diet of excessive fat and sugar. The devotees should not be known as those who make flavorful Hindu preparations (an ethnic stamp) but rather as people that prepare flavorful plates that increase the duration of life, are healthy, purify the existence and give force, happiness and satisfaction (that would be a recognition to the superior and scientific knowledge). More and more people use such foods and we should teach the world to eat this way, since this is an important part of the true spiritual science of Krishna Consciousness. Chanting japa in the streets Until the same simple act of chanting japa in the streets with the hand in the bag has counteractive results to our preaching let us meditate a moment on the appearance of somebody with the hand inside a bag, with a finger out, shaking the mentioned bag and speaking for itself (and many times making some grimaces a strange looks). Let us leave for a moment aside the fact that we know that chanting japa is something wonderful and the most beneficent thing and let us imagine what a Western person would think when seeing that. This is the point, we should not act in a way that we alone benefit but so that others also benefit. If we can modify some of the things that we make without sacrificing our true principles and this way to stop to cause certain aspects of rarity that affect our image in a negative way, if we can make this for the good of the preaching and we don't do it, then we are acting in an irresponsible and selfish way. Irresponsible because we are ignoring the maximum order of Prabhupada that is to present Krishna Consciousness in an intelligent way and to attract the maximum number of people, and selfish because we are hardly thinking of our own spiritual advancement. Dances, Art and Architecture The same principle is applied to all the other aspects of the Vedic culture: its dances, art and Vedic architecture are not necessarily Hindu. Prabhupada frequently appreciated the Western classic architecture. Our temples don't need to have these exotic and colorful decorations that generally have, there is no reason to necessarily give exhibitions of Hindu dances in our festivals of the Ratha Yatra. That stereotypes our image, limiting the vision that people can have of ISKCON of representing something really universal and practical. Justification According to Srila Prabhupada's teachings and writings, can these changes be made in ISKCON? The answer is yes, they can and they should. It is our duty. Prabhupada said that he had created a basic structure and that it would be on us to give the final touch. We can see that in his 60 volumes he doesn't speak of these small details, knowing that this is a question of the time, place and circumstances. How would a movement last ten thousand years without altering such details? How would a science be valid for all the times in all the universes if it remained tied to this type of things? The point is that Prabhupada always said - add Krishna and the result will be wonderful. He didn't recommend to erase everything but rather leave everything as it was and add Krishna and in that way the result would be excellent. One of the most important points in our philosophy and that Srila Prabhupada emphasized repeatedly is the principle of adapting the spiritual science according to the time, place and circumstances. Prabhupada didn't come to the West to change our clothes, neither he came to remove those covered with our hands, much less to take off the seats neither to change the architecture, dances and the Western classic music. He came to bring Krishna and the science of connecting everything again to Him. Conclusion The Vedic culture is not externally something patented in music terms, gear, architecture, cooks, etc. This changes a place or a time. It is not that in the whole universe, by all Vaikuntha or where it is that the Vedic culture prevails, we will find exactly the same type of gears, architecture, art, cooks, etc. Only on a minuscule planet like ours one finds simultaneously so many cultures coarsely different, what to say in the vast Kingdom of God. It is not for omission that our main writings and our big Acaryas including Srila Prabhupada didn't play these topics. This is due to that it is a variable, superficial question. What is not variable in the Vedic culture is the spiritual science, the different self-realization forms and the spiritual advancement that culminates with the pure devotional service to Sri Krsna. It is also variable fact that the Vedic culture means to take pains for the perfection, for the maximum knowledge in all that is made. This way ISKCON should make an effort to show to the world this ideal of looking for the maximum quality in all that is made and to execute it like an offering to God. Who can argue against such a perfect objective? Who would be opposed to a movement that works this way? If we are really taking seriously the order and mission of Prabhupada we should understand that there is not another alternative. In the globalized world one sees two main tendencies: the search for the excellence and standardization of a universal culture. Companies and serious governments invest trillions of dollars in education and training for their employees, demanding from them a more and more high level of efficiency and quality. Practically no big company is able to survive without perfecting its products and work processes constantly. In the developed countries the towns also demand from their governments a growing quality and excellence. And already many decades ago that what is considered as something worthy and respectable in New York will be equally worthy and respectable in Shangai, Delhi, Paris or Sao Paulo. The world looks for universality for this new reality in which we live. It is senseless and counteractive to try to present a message which doesn't care how wonderful it is, if it is immersed in an ethnic and exotic format. Acting this way is saying to the world that we are not interested in it and on the other hand the world is not interested in us. We are totally outside of syntony with the current reality. It is clear that our philosophy is perfect and we don't really need the approval of anybody, neither we are interested in having followers, fame, etc... But like an institution, as preachers, we cannot think this way. We have to make an effort and to make all that we can to stay current and excellent if we want that our message is listened to. Appointments of Srila Prabhupada 1. I have built the structure of the sky-scraper, now you fill it in an appropriate way (Letter to Rupanuga, Delhi 10 of December of 1971) 2. They are interested in obtaining knowledge, but the materialistic knowledge will deviate them from the true goal of its intelligence, and all its other credits in connection with its education. They only added many zeros. But if yourself is very well turned in our Krishna Consciousness, you will be able to convince them that if they put Krishna or God in the center of their learning process, it doesn't matter if they are scientific, chemical, political, any thing that they are, if they put to Krishna in front of many zeros the result will be a great sum and their life will be perfect. (Letter to Tribhuvannatha, Los Angeles, June 16 1972.) 3. The method of adoration - chanting the mantra and preparing the forms of the Lord - is not stereotyped nor it is exactly same everywhere. It is specifically mentioned in this verse that one should take consideration of the time, place and available conveniences. Our Krishna Consciousness movement is going on throughout the entire world, and we also install Deities in different centers. Sometimes our Indian friends, puffed up with their concocted notions, criticize, "This has not be done. That has not be done." But they forget this instruction of Narada Muni to one of the greatest Vaishnavas, Dhruva Maharaja. One has to consider the particular time, country and conveniences. What is convenient in India may not be convenient in the Western countries. Those who are not actually in the line of Acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of Acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. ... it might be that there are changes in the manner worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja Sampradaya, had remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities can be lightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas. (SB 4.8.54 meaning) y